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Tracking Force - Too Little Damages Records?

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Wigwam Jones

Wigwam Jones

Caesar non supra grammati
I have started a new thread on this, since it came up on a discussion about a particular cartridge and stylus. I think it is a more general type of question, though, so here's the new thread.

The comment was made by several people that if you use a tracking force that is too light, you risk damaging your records. In fact, the assertion is made that too little VTF is worse for your records than too much.

The two reasons I have heard so far are these:

1) If the VTF is too light, the needle may skip in the groove, which causes damage.

2) If the VTF is too light, the needle may 'rattle around' or 'vibrate' inside the groove, causing damage or excessive wear.

I can fully understand why mistracking is bad. But if your record is skipping, you can hear it. This goes all the way back to the bad old days when my parents would put a penny on the end of the tonearm when a record got old and damaged and started skipping. No problem grasping this concept.

However, I am not sure where the concept came from that you can damage your record by using a lighter-than-recommended tracking force even if it is NOT skipping.

Certainly, I read this a lot. I can Google and find references to this recommendation and reasoning on any number of discussion forums. But I'm not sure it's based in reality.

In an effort to try to track this down (no pun intended), I found these:

http://www.ortofon.com/support/faq-installation

3.2. Distortion

Correct tracking force is very important for optimum performance as well as for reduction of wear in the record caused by mistracking. Tracking force should rather be too high than too low to overcome high amplitudes in the record and should be adjusted together with the anti-skating.​

Ortofon makes it clear in their FAQ that wear is caused by mistracking. But again, this is something you can hear. Your needle either is or is not skipping, right? Or do they mean something else by the term 'mistracking'? I'm unclear on this.

http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answe...sion/L3RpbWUvMTM2MzYxMjk1OC9zaWQvZWpDOG10bGw=

Tracking weights
Published 07/08/2001 06:31 PM | Updated 09/30/2008 08:22 AM
QUESTION:
My question is a very simple one but I didn't find anything about it in the quick look I had on your pages. I have a Sansui turntable (SR-212) which I bought second hand and so I don't have the manuals. Its arm has a variable weight system. As I could find from some testings, if the arm weight is too low there will be distortions in the sound; if the arm weight is too high I supose it could damage the records grooves and the needle. So my question has three parts: 1. what's the ideal weight for playing a typical record in good conditions with a new needle? 2. what's the acceptable weight range in order not to get any distortions nor damage records in the long term? 3. is it true that older records tend to demand higher weights?
ANSWER:
1) What's the ideal weight for playing a typical record in good conditions with a new needle? * This depends upon the phono cartridge mounted on the tonearm. Tracking weights range from 0.75 grams to 5 grams.

2) What's the acceptable weight range in order not to get any distortions nor damage records in the long term? * The lighter, the better. One gram is a good choice IF your tonearm/phono cartridge combination can track at one gram.

3) Is it true that older records tend to demand higher weights? *78 rpm records require a higher tracking weight than 45 rpm records. 45 rpm records require a higher tracking weight than 33 1/3 rpm records.

Answer ID 1356​

Shure seems to feel that 'the lighter the better'. But they also state that a cartridge / stylus has a given range for VTF, and this should be observed. So, the 'lighter the better', but within the manufacturer's recommended VTF range, presumably.

But I'm still not finding any information regarding the stylus rattling around in the groove and causing damage if the VTF is too light, unless that is what Ortofon means by 'mistracking' causing damage.

Does anyone have any other information that might shed some light on this question?
 
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A friend of mine insists on tracking his Shure V15 @ 1/2 grams. All of his records are messed up, sounding like it was played on a cheap record chewer. When I heard his stereo, I could hear distortion from the table that I attributed to the stylus "rattling" in the groove.
I have records from when I was a kid with a battery operated record player (4 grams - ceramic cart.) that still sound fine.
 
Celt said:
A friend of mine insists on tracking his Shure V15 @ 1/2 grams. All of his records are messed up, sounding like it was played on a cheap record chewer. When I heard his stereo, I could hear distortion from the table that I attributed to the stylus "rattling" in the groove.
I have records from when I was a kid with a battery operated record player (4 grams - ceramic cart.) that still sound fine.
Click to expand...

I accept what you're saying and I am sure it could be that the reason for his records sounding messed up is the very light tracking force, but is there any way of knowing that it wasn't attributable to something else?
 
Celt said:
Don't think so...Thorens TD-165 that was carefully set up with stylus that were replaced every year.
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Could *he* hear this damage that you could hear? If so, to what did he attribute it? One would imagine that a person who knew his records were being damaged and sounded awful would want to take some kind of corrective action.
 
Shed some light would be to actually show different tests with actual results. Neither Shure or Ortofon do that, so what is correct is anybody´s guess. That a low VTF with no mistracking should be best seems reasonable.

As I see mistracking in general, it starts usually with a sibilant sound on high frequencies. Sometimes it helps then to increase VTF, but not always. Different needle profiles mistracks differently.

I don´t buy that a needle that instantaniously looses contact with a groove wall, will wear more than if not loosing contact. I can´t see how, when the groove velocity is that high as it is, the vinyl is very hard.
gusten
 
A rule of thumb I learned a long time ago and to which I still cleave - it is generally better to track at the high end of the mfgr's recommended VTF range than the low.
 
mhardy6647 said:
A rule of thumb I learned a long time ago and to which I still cleave - it is generally better to track at the high end of the mfgr's recommended VTF range than the low.
Click to expand...

I get that, but the underlying question is whether or not there is a valid scientific reason for it. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as to where this 'common knowledge' came from. Everyone seems to know it, but where does it come from?

It's like that old 'drink 8 glasses of water a day' thing. They did a study recently and found that although drinking water is certainly good for you, and doctors have been saying this for decades, no one knows where it came from, and there are no underlying studies or information that shows '8 glasses' to be an optimal amount of water to drink. It's just an "old wives' tale' as" as they used to term such things.

So what's up with this VTF thing? Same issue?
 
There's another quote that floats around here -- the high end of the VTF is what the engineers use. The low end is what the marketing people use.

I find it very easy to hear distortion caused by mistracking, and it's always always always when the VTF is too low.

Or put it this way -- when I'm troubleshooting a turntable and I hear mistracking (distortion and sibilance in high frequencies), if increasing the VTF does NOT make the bad sounds go away, then I know there's an issue with the stylus, cantilever or tonearm.

It's the same as a car -- if you have weight over the drive wheels, the car handles better. It's making better contact with the road and not bouncing around on the suspension with every little bump.

Low VTF kills records and sounds bad.

Try it yourself if you need any proof!
 
Wigwam Jones said:
I get that, but the underlying question is whether or not there is a valid scientific reason for it. Not saying you're wrong, just curious as to where this 'common knowledge' came from. Everyone seems to know it, but where does it come from?

It's like that old 'drink 8 glasses of water a day' thing. They did a study recently and found that although drinking water is certainly good for you, and doctors have been saying this for decades, no one knows where it came from, and there are no underlying studies or information that shows '8 glasses' to be an optimal amount of water to drink. It's just an "old wives' tale' as" as they used to term such things.

So what's up with this VTF thing? Same issue?
Click to expand...

The slight amount of mistracking in the vertical plane due to not enough downforce to hold the stylus against the vinyl at all times causes the diamond to bounce along against the modulation. The impact at bounce is quite high
 
Wigwam Jones said:
Could *he* hear this damage that you could hear? If so, to what did he attribute it? One would imagine that a person who knew his records were being damaged and sounded awful would want to take some kind of corrective action.
Click to expand...

Oh, he could hear it alright, but rather than accept that his set up was the problem, he blamed the noise on the medium.
Funny, 'cause my records sure don't sound like that!
 
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bangsezmax said:
There's another quote that floats around here -- the high end of the VTF is what the engineers use. The low end is what the marketing people use.

I find it very easy to hear distortion caused by mistracking, and it's always always always when the VTF is too low.

Or put it this way -- when I'm troubleshooting a turntable and I hear mistracking (distortion and sibilance in high frequencies), if increasing the VTF does NOT make the bad sounds go away, then I know there's an issue with the stylus, cantilever or tonearm.

It's the same as a car -- if you have weight over the drive wheels, the car handles better. It's making better contact with the road and not bouncing around on the suspension with every little bump.

Low VTF kills records and sounds bad.

Try it yourself if you need any proof!
Click to expand...

I totally agree, except that low VTF kills records, I have not seen any proof of that. Mechanically it also makes no sense as I see it.
gusten
 
bangsezmax said:
Try it yourself if you need any proof!
Click to expand...

Well, that's where my question originally came from. I am using a cart/stylus with a recommended VTF that is higher than I'm used to. I set it originally at a value much lower than the recommended value; I set it at 1.5 G instead of the recommended value of over 2.5 G.

I did not hear any mistracking. The needle did not skip, nor did I hear any sibilance or obvious distortion. I also did not hear any distortion. I was advised to increase the VTF and I did, but it sounded the same to me.

I can imagine setting the VTF so low that the needle begins to skip or exhibit the problems you describe, but that means it sounds bad; does it also mean damage is being caused? That was actually my question.
 
Celt said:
Oh, he could hear it alright, but rather than accept that his set up was the problem, he blamed it noise on the medium.
Funny, 'cause my records sure don't sound like that!
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Fair enough, but was any other testing done?

I am imagining a situation where I might use a light tracking force and say I do not hear any distortion, and others telling me it's because my ears aren't good enough, or my system is not good enough to reveal the distortion.

See where I'm going with this? I accept that you heard distortion when he played his records, but how do we pin the cause down to light tracking force?
 
bangsezmax said:
There's another quote that floats around here -- the high end of the VTF is what the engineers use. The low end is what the marketing people use.

I find it very easy to hear distortion caused by mistracking, and it's always always always when the VTF is too low.

Or put it this way -- when I'm troubleshooting a turntable and I hear mistracking (distortion and sibilance in high frequencies), if increasing the VTF does NOT make the bad sounds go away, then I know there's an issue with the stylus, cantilever or tonearm.

It's the same as a car -- if you have weight over the drive wheels, the car handles better. It's making better contact with the road and not bouncing around on the suspension with every little bump.

Low VTF kills records and sounds bad.

Try it yourself if you need any proof!
Click to expand...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=5364996&postcount=45

Besides the HI FI News test record, the link above is where I first learned higher vtf is better than too low.
 
It of course also so that with a given tracking force the needle mistracks very differently depending on the TT used. With a good arm it´s possible to use lower VTF without mistracking.
gusten
 
Do you have a copy of Aja?

Play "I Got the News," the part where they say "Spanish kissin'/See it glisten" and see if you're hearing any sibilance. Try it with the VTF at 1.5 g and at 2.5 g.

Another place to test is the high-hat-heavy sections towards the end of the title track. See if you hear a difference at higher vs lower VTFs. Listen for sizzle that sounds like it's too hot.

If you really can't hear a difference in those sections, then you're probably okay with the lower VTF.

BTW -- try it with good headphones if you have some. It may be more revealing.
 
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illini said:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=5364996&postcount=45

Besides the HI FI News test record, the link above is where I first learned higher vtf is better than too low.
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That's some interesting information, but it's a bit on the hearsay side, and it contradicts what's on the Shure website FAQ, and even then, it doesn't specifically say that damage is being done by the lower tracking force; there are two statements there and the latter is disconnected from the former. Who was this engineer? When was this said? Can we reference any information he may have had to damage done by lighter tracking forces?
 
bangsezmax said:
Do you have a copy of Aja?

Play "I Got the News," the part where they say "Spanish kissin'/See it glisten" and see if you're hearing any sibilance. Try it with the VTF at 1.5 g and at 2.5 g.

Another place to test is the high-hat-heavy sections towards the end of the title track. See if you hear a difference at higher vs lower VTFs. Listen for sizzle that sounds like it's too hot.

If you really can't hear a difference in those sections, then you're probably okay with the lower VTF.
Click to expand...

No, I do not have that record.

I have a couple records that exhibit sibilance in certain tracks, but I have noticed that they do it on every turntable I have, from low-end to high-end. So I'm not sure that would be of much help.
 
Well, besides the link Len Gregory (hi fi news test lp) recommends starting at the high end vtf and working downward until distortion is heard. I don't think that conflicts with what you're saying.
 
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