Perhaps The Greatest Bargain In Modern Audio...The TBI Millenia Integrated Amp V 2

The TBI Millenia is an interesting Class D amplifier that resides in a no man's land, where it is more expensive than the T chip amps and other $100 wonders. Yet with a $500 price tag, it is not expensive enough to be take seriously by the average audiophile. But that is a mistake.

I have had all three versions of this amplifier, as it has gone through the V1, then 1.1, and now V2. Class D is inherently different than a traditional amplifier, and until now has had a very distinctive signature in my opinion, well at this price point at least. This version of the amp has seen the designer implementing a new type of coupling capacitor, Polyphenylene-Sulphide. The compact board size of the Millenia does not allow for the use of traditional boutique type capacitors for their size is too large, and there are some electrical properties that are supposedly less than desirable.

While I know next to nothing about PPS capacitor technology, I do know what I hear in terms of sound difference. Especially since I also have a V1.1 amp to make direct comparisons to. While the previous amp was very nice sounding, and was refined and smooth, it tended to sound a bit closed in. My Electra Print amplifiers did low level detail better, and the sound expanded to fill the room with that desirable layering to the music.This latest version of the Millenia now has this kind of presentation, with a lack of grain or odd tonal anomalies that artificially create the illusion of heightened presence. The tonal balance is slightly lighter in the lower midrange than my SET, and if i were to nit pick it is not quite as polished and smooth, but it is so darn close its not funny. Remember we are talking about a $500 integrated versus a amp/pre combo that costs $6K and has a $800 pair of Sophia Carbon Princess output tubes.

Now the amplifier is capable of 32 wpc with the AC switching power supply, or 10 wpc with a 12 volt DC supply. I find the battery supply offers the highest resolution in terms of sound quality, although as the amp has progressed the AC supply has closed the gap in terms of SQ. I could see in certain situations where the AC supply would be preferable. Now if you were to pair up two SLA 12 volt batteries,, you can get 32 wpc on battery power. What I wonder what would happen if you were to source a linear AC power supply for the amp, and it may be possible to get even closer to the battery performance without the complexity. But since I have high efficiency speakers the 10 wpc is plenty of power. So I can run $50 automotive jump pack, that gives me a battery and charger in a self contained unit.

So for that aspiring audiophile with limited means, this amplifier is a fantastic way to build a system. Yes its limited on inputs, and hooking up a subwoofer is a PITA. But the sound quality is remarkable for its price. Just pair it with the right type of speakers, and you can have a wonderful system for a very reasonable price.

Regards
Mister Pig

Thanks for that - the first thing that leapt to mind when I read your post was 'Dayens Ampino !', another little 'giant killer' mini-amp, and voila -

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/3_mini_amps_e.html

The Dayens is Class A/B - not really sure what 'Class BD' involves, but it seems like an interesting approach. FWIW, the Ampino is a little more expensive (outside Europe, where it would actually be cheaper with the Euro in its current state), but takes a standard power cord. It would be great to be able to put both behind a curtain with something like the Brio-R (another 'giant killer', albeit at twice the price) and have someone periodically switch from one to the other, if only for my own amusement. I'm weird like that

While the TBI Millenia Integrated Amp V 2 looks like a fine Amp, its got plenty of company from many well established Brands.

Recently decent Amps in that price Range are being introduced on a regular Basis. Amps like this Marantz 6004
http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Marantz-PM6004/

Onkyo and Cambridge each have some fine Amps in that price Range too, although right now IMO the Marantz 6004 is the Benchmark in Budget Amps.

For flat out SQ/$, I'd go with something like this 6.5 wpc Class-A Single Ended Musical Paradise MP 301 Mk III SET Amp thats sells for penuts. http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=54

If you listen to music at Nominal SPL's. An SET (or SE) Amp has a presence that few SS Amps, at any Price can produce. A Presence that makes music sound alive and real.

charles 1973 said:

While the TBI Millenia Integrated Amp V 2 looks like a fine Amp, its got plenty of company from many well established Brands.

Recently decent Amps in that price Range are being introduced on a regular Basis. Amps like this Marantz 6004
http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Marantz-PM6004/

Onkyo and Cambridge each have some fine Amps in that price Range too, although right now IMO the Marantz 6004 is the Benchmark in Budget Amps.

For flat out SQ/$, I'd go with something like this 6.5 wpc Class-A Single Ended Musical Paradise MP 301 Mk III SET Amp thats sells for penuts. http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=54

If you listen to music at Nominal SPL's. An SET (or SE) Amp has a presence that few SS Amps, at any Price can produce. A Presence that makes music sound alive and real.

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If you listen to music at Nominal SPL's. An SET (or SE) Amp has a presence that few SS Amps, at any Price can produce. A Presence that makes music sound alive and real.

Well the amp in my main system is an Electra Print 300B Custom, with Sophia 300B Carbon Princess output tubes, and the Electra Print PVA pre-amp, so I am making this comparison in sound quality against a very decent SET amplifier. Yes SET does immediacy, presence, and harmonics, texture, and tone. With that being said, the Millenia is not far off from the Electra Print, which I find astounding. You know that presence thing? This amp does it better than any Class D or chip amp I have heard. In the past I have spent time with the Audiozone, the King Rex stack, and heard several others. Up until now chip amps in general had a distinctive sound that had to be accounted for in equipment matching. This amp does not sound like a Class D, or a SS amp, if anything a hybrid between small pentodes like an EL 84 and a well balanced SET design. Doesn't quite have the beautiful texture of DHT tubes, but so close its not funny.

Actually TBI Audio has been around for a decent amount of time, they are primarily known for their Magellan subwoofers, but this little integrated has been in production for a few years, although what you really want is the second generation amp.

Spent a bit of time looking at the Musical Paradise amp, sorry that is no SET. That is a Single Ended Pentode, ala SEP. Even strapping pentodes to triode output is not going to equal a true triode tube such as a 2a3 or 300B. I have heard other auto bias designs using more than one type of output tube, and the inexpensive ones are always compromised due to the added circuitry, and less than ideal matching to the output transformers. Speaking of output transformers, the quality of SET amps is directly related to the quality of iron used. Good iron is never cheap, and that amp is not fitted with a quality pair of output transformers. I am sure the amp sounds good for its price point, these small tube amps are simple enough to produce a lot of music right, but it certainly is not a quality SET. But for $300 you do seem to get a very decent amp, and demand for it appears to be good.

Now I have not heard the Marantz amp, so I am not able to make definitive statements, and I am sure willing to say that. But I have had the Dayens Ampino Monoblock amps in the house just a couple of months ago, and I would take this Millenia over them. Heck I can put it in my main system in place of the Electra Print and be happy listening to music. So that says something to me. Being able to get 32 wpc out of it instead of the 6.5 of the Musical Paradise means it opens up the possibility of a whole bunch of monitor and floor standing speakers can be used, which adds a degree of flexibility that would have some value to the right person. Yet on battery at 10 wpc it can be successfully used with high efficiency speakers, which higher power amps normally do not mate well with. Fortunately there is a wide array of components and manufacturers for hobbyists to choose from, so there is something for everyone. But these kind of discussions never solve anything on the net. The loss of brick and mortar stores and a large local audio communities means few of us ever get together and make these comparisons in the same system at the same time. Wish that could happen more often.

But this is just the opinion of a country pig. We have simple tastes, good food, warm sun, and soft hay. If you want a different opinion go ask the horses, for they are wise. Do not talk to the chickens as fowl are liars, and cheat at cards.

Regards
Mister Pig

Mister Pig. I spent some time wading thru that massive Audiocircle thread, and there are some unhappy campers towards the end of the thread. Seems to OP thought he was doing folks a favor testing the Millenia with relatively hard-to-drive speakers, but it seems that folk with more sensitive speakers are complaining of poor channel balance at low volume, and an 'all-or-nothing' volume pot (they claim the amp has too much gain from the factory) : I have a headphone amp with the same problems and it doesnt get a lot of use despite its undeniable bang-for-buck.

In your case, I assume you are controlling the volume with a pre-amp ? Also interested to hear how you would hook an active subwoofer to this amp.

Thanks

estreeter said:

Mister Pig. I spent some time wading thru that massive Audiocircle thread, and there are some unhappy campers towards the end of the thread. Seems to OP thought he was doing folks a favor testing the Millenia with relatively hard-to-drive speakers, but it seems that folk with more sensitive speakers are complaining of poor channel balance at low volume, and an 'all-or-nothing' volume pot (they claim the amp has too much gain from the factory) : I have a headphone amp with the same problems and it doesnt get a lot of use despite its undeniable bang-for-buck.

In your case, I assume you are controlling the volume with a pre-amp ? Also interested to hear how you would hook an active subwoofer to this amp.

Thanks

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Reading through that monster thread? You have got some patience! I check into it form time to time, but it was no where near that long when I first started reading it.

That channel imbalance thing is a bit odd, and it has been awhile since I read that thread, so I went back and came up with those posts regarding the volume pot. Now the thing that is interesting is that one person out of all those people who used the touring amp came up with a mis-tracking volume pot issue. There has got to be what, maybe 30 users on that tour? I certainly cannot account for what variables in the system, or the persons listening habits could lead to hearing a mis-tracking pot. But aside from him there was onle person complaining that the quality of pot it should have in it, and that some other manufacturer supplies a better quality pot in their modestly priced amplifier.

For what its worth, I have two of them, a v 1.1 and a v 2.0, and I have a set of 98db efficient speakers, and the DAC has 4 volts output voltage. I never had a balance issue, or mis-tracking at lower listening levels. So that has not been my experience. Only one person mentions it. Another harsh truth is that you get enough people together, and some one just likes to complain, to stand out and be heard. That may very well have been the point with the person commenting on the quality of pot that should be in it. Remember we are talking about a $500 retail amplifier, you are not going to get a TKD film pot in one at that price point.

I use the amplifier as an integrated, and I do have an Electra Print PVA pre-amp that is a transformer based design for impedance isolation and voltage to current balance. What I found is that the Millenia sounded better used by itself than with an external pre-amp. The first gain stage of the amp is based on a new op amp from Motorola, and its very fast, and the circuit performs impedance matching, so in reality its far more sophisticated than just a pot. I think it does a fine job, and wouldn't change it.

Getting a sub hooked up is a hassle, for it is going to requite the use of high level inputs. If that is not possible, then the source component is going to have to have some sort of RCA output adapter that allows for a second set of cables to be routed to the sub. There are RCA adaptors that are milled with two sets of female RCA fittings. Either way is a bit of a hassle, but I did not have any issues using the high level inputs on my Infinity Cascade 15 sub, and no loss of sound quality that I could detect. But yes, ideally I would prefer a set of sub out RCA jacks on the amp itself. But since that signal comes off the first gain stage, I do not think a hobbyist would be able to add one very easily. I would like a second set of inputs on the amp also, for I run two sources. I know Jan at TBI does some modifications to these, perhaps i will talk to him and see if he can work something out like this for the second amp I have.

It is a shame you are not in the US, as I could have my other amp updated to V 2.0 and send it off to you for a listen. There is no substitute for just hearing it. Remember, you do want the 2.0 version, and most of that thread you read is about the 1.0 and 1.1 amps, which still sound pretty good, but do not have that presence and size of sound stage that the current amp has. Hope that clarifies a few things.

EDIT:

Oh the thing to remember is that these Class D amplifiers do require a bit of speaker matching. You do not want to see horribly reactive speaker impedance curves as these output chips do not have the ability to dissipate heat like a bank of 20 transistors hooked up to a heat sink the size of a softball bat. So do not go hooking it up to a pair of Apogees or Infinity Kappa 9. 4 ohm nominal is fine, as long as there are no crazy impedance dips. Even with the 32 wpc on tap with AC power or 24 volt battery, you are still going to want medium efficiency speakers. One thing I would like to try one day is getting a third amp and electronic x-over and tri-amp a pair of speakers, and see what comes about. In a way its no longer budget sound, but you get a small form factor and may get a quality of sound that exceeds its cash outlay. It would be an interesting experiment.

Regards
Mister Pig

I'm on the second round of the tour and can't wait to hear this amp.

Pig, what are the main differences in the last two versions? Is an older version user upgradable?

ejfud said:

I'm on the second round of the tour and can't wait to hear this amp.

Pig, what are the main differences in the last two versions? Is an older version user upgradable?

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Yes the older version is upgradeable. The 2.0 incorporates a newer type capacitor technology on the input coupling stage. there are a couple of other minor changes made, in the inter-stage coupling circuit and in the power supply to fine tune the voicing of the amplifier.

Do run it on battery power, if you can use that level of power. I still think that is the best overall sound.

Oh the upgrade cost for an older version is $50, as that is what the website shows.

Regards
Mister Pig

Mister Pig,

Thanks for the clarification re the volume pot - I will try to ensure that I find the latest version of the amp if I ever elect to go down that road. Is it possible for you to post a photo of your battery-pack connected to the amp, please ? Ideally, I would want something like the RWA Black Lightning for such a device, but throwing that much money at a $500 amp (even if it performs at a level several times beyond that) seems like overkill.

Thanks,

estreeter

The Black Lightning is 18V, but my point is that the LiFEPO4 batteries are housed in a casing that wouldnt look out of place in most racks:

estreeter said:

Mister Pig,

Thanks for the clarification re the volume pot - I will try to ensure that I find the latest version of the amp if I ever elect to go down that road. Is it possible for you to post a photo of your battery-pack connected to the amp, please ? Ideally, I would want something like the RWA Black Lightning for such a device, but throwing that much money at a $500 amp (even if it performs at a level several times beyond that) seems like overkill.

Thanks,

estreeter

The Black Lightning is 18V, but my point is that the LiFEPO4 batteries are housed in a casing that wouldnt look out of place in most racks:

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What I use? Honestly? It's not going to have much audiophile street cred, that is for sure. OK, remember I only need 10 wpc cause I got efficient speakers. So 12 volts. What I use is a Sears emergency jump start pack, it actually came with my turntable to drive the DC motor. Pretty innovative solution by Thom Mackris to supply with his entry level table and keep costs down.

The jump packs sells for $60 or $80, gives you a lead sealed battery, a charger, a very tidy case that can be hidden behind the stereo rack, and a power point plug, which we used to call a cigarette lighter plug, which can be fitted with the large plug on one end, and a miniature jack on the other end to plug into the amp. So for a modest price i got my 12 volt power supply that has the electronics to trickle charge the battery and shuts off when fully charged, and a very tidy enclosed case.



Now if you want the full 32 wpc on battery power, you are going to need a pair of 12 volt SLA batteries and a charger for it, and then a project box to build a case.

Regards
Mister Pig

Thanks for that - you've filled in the missing piece of the puzzle. I've jumpstarted a few cars - usually using the car battery in one car to jump the dead battery in another - and I just couldn't work out how you were powering an amp with jumper leads ! Clearly, I have zero audiophile cred (at least with the DiY/tinkerer brigade ..) or I wouldnt have to ask that. The only time I've ever had to resort to an electronics supplier was when I needed a decent wallwart for my Objective2 headphone amp - its a 12V AC jobbie that works with our 240V wall sockets here in Oz (my amp was built in the UK - I think they use 110V), but all it has to do is recharge the battery in the O2.

http://www.master-instruments.com.au/products/60020/MP3026.html

One of the fanatics on Stereonet Australia swears by the marine batteries he uses to power his (heavily modded) Marantz CDP, but it's *not* something I've ever seriously considered.

Thanks again - I'll continue to check back in on the AudioCircle thread from time to time.

I'm also on the ad tour waiting for a trial run. Does any else find it ironic that an amp from a great sub manufacturer is difficult to hook up with a-----sub

Positive Feedback are clearly impressed by the latest version of the Milennia - they reviewed it not once, but twice

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue62/millenia.htm

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue67/tbi_millenia.htm

Looks the same - same photos, same author - but they are two different reviews published almost 12 months apart. FWIW, I believe the amp is still selling for 500USD, and TBI now have monitors to go with your amp/sub 'package'. Party on, dudes !