Shure's M95ED or M97XE ?? With JICO SAS

Which would be your preference

Considering both would have a new JICO stylus

Possible TT = Technics SL-23

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/technics/sl-23.shtml

Thanks :thmbsp:

I've been contemplating the same thing myself. I haven't ever owned an SAS yet, but here's what I've heard. The dynamic stabilizers on the Jico styli don't work nearly as well as the OEM Shure, yet they cost around $30 bucks more than the styli without a stabilizer. That would make the M95 stylus cheaper. The M95 body will likely sound brighter, as a result of a difference in inductance. It should be easy to tame that back with loading, to roughly match the performance of the M97x body. The problem is, if the M97x body sounds too dull, it's harder to brighten up. I say go for the M95.

My 2 cents.

^^Good points.

Hi Gents,
I found the tonal character of the M97xE to be transformed with the SAS.
The standard cart's laid back character was replaced with a tighter, vibrant more lively presentation.
I enjoyed it so much that a JICO SAS M97xE has joined the permanent cart stable.
There's some std. and SAS stylus WAV samples on my site if you fancy hearing a flavour of the difference.
Cheers
Dave

DaveyW said:

Hi Gents,
I found the tonal character of the M97xE to be transformed with the SAS.
The standard cart's laid back character was replaced with a tighter, vibrant more lively presentation.
I enjoyed it so much that a JICO SAS M97xE has joined the permanent cart stable.
There's some std. and SAS stylus WAV samples on my site if you fancy hearing a flavour of the difference.
Cheers
Dave

Click to expand...

Did you like the original and want to get more out of it, or dislike the original and upgrade to see if it made a good cart?

Thanks guys... Keep it coming

PickyEars81 said:

Did you like the original and want to get more out of it, or dislike the original and upgrade to see if it made a good cart?

Click to expand...

Am a bit of a cart junky

Had the opportunity to audition both at the same time and was keen to hear a SAS

Wasn't planning on adding another to the collection - but it was too good to let go and will help keep the mileage down on my preferred carts.

Hi Folks,

in my usual verbose style...

1) Brush vs no brush - the damper does work (I have measured the effect) - although not as effectively as the original Shure item - but it does damp LF resonance, and therefore helps by reducing higher level intermodulations as a result - it cleans things up. (and no I am not talking about dust - which will not be present on any of our records when being played.....right?)
Whether it is worth the addition $30 is a different question!

2) All the SAS styli appear identical - there does not to the best of my knowledge appear to be a difference between N97xSAS and VN5xSAS. BUT there are manufacturing variations between individual styli that can be quite pronounced.
The variations appear primarily in the tensioning system of the SAS, and result in variations in the cantilever resonance at 16kHz (16kHz I am guessing as the tension wire resonance and 28KHz as the main cantilever resonance - 28kHz is circa 8db).

I have 4 exemplars and the 16KHz resonance in 2 is slight, and in 1 is substantial, and 1 is middling. (worst is around 2.5db)

Due to the variance in the 16kHz resonance within the audible range, ideal setup has varied....

3) I have experimented with a range of shure bodies having inductances ranging from around 320mH (V15V) to 700mH (MT105p), and the range of available inductances allowed me to tune all 3 critical parameters - Inductance, capacitance and resistance.

With the SAS having the largest 16kHz resonance, best results were achieved by using a high inductance body (700mH), with 47k ohm and around 350pf

With the "smoothest" SAS I found the low inductance body (320mH) combined with 26kOhm and 760pf capacitance to be best....
Unfortunately the "smoothest" SAS is a narrow shank VN5SAS so I cannot use it properly in the higher inductance bodies... clearly the SAS styli work best in higher inductance setups, and I am having to increase the capacitance to compensate for the low inductance in this case...

My objective was to achieve as smooth a frequency response as possible while still remaining as flat as possible - with priority given to below 16kHz (ie willing to have a slight rise or drop after 16kHz in exchange for better response below that)

With the two setups described above, the high inductance body with the more "resonant" SAS resulted in a very smooth response to 16kHz then dropping off quite quickly, the low inductance setup resulted in a similar response to 16kHz but only a slow drop off after that.

If I wanted to achieve flat or slightly rising top end response (16kHz to 20kHz) the trade off seems to be the resonance at 16kHz rising up - so you have a slight rise in the 8kHz to 16kHz range.

My advice without measuring the individual stylus is:

700mH body - 47k and 250pf to 300pf (if the 16kHz resonance is more prominent raise the C to 350pf)
500mH body - 47k and 400 to 500pf (again around 400pf if smooth, 500pf if the 16kHz is not so well controlled)

Although I have experimented with low inductance and low capacitance setups, these expose the cantilever behaviour quite harshly - great for figuring out what is happening in terms of cantilever resonances etc... but not so good for listening (but if you like a substantially rising high end, contrasting with a slightly depressed midrange then this might be your thing...)

There you go - my personal 2bits


Short version of the above:
In my opinion, the brush is worth the extra $30, and I would opt for the higher inductance body.

bye for now

David

Wow!! dlaloum

Thanks...

So... I take it no one objects with either cart on a belt drive SL-23 ?

Plus1

Multiplex said:

I've been contemplating the same thing myself. I haven't ever owned an SAS yet, but here's what I've heard. The dynamic stabilizers on the Jico styli don't work nearly as well as the OEM Shure, yet they cost around $30 bucks more than the styli without a stabilizer. That would make the M95 stylus cheaper. The M95 body will likely sound brighter, as a result of a difference in inductance. It should be easy to tame that back with loading, to roughly match the performance of the M97x body. The problem is, if the M97x body sounds too dull, it's harder to brighten up. I say go for the M95.

My 2 cents.

Click to expand...

Had two 97s. Have never liked them much. Have a M95 with a JICO. Not a SAS though. Go with the M95. The older Shures all beat the 97. Agree with the above.

Eric

Agree also the M95 is the better choice.

Actually, I think I prefer (marginally) the M97xE to the M95ED with the OEM styli. Don't know about how they sound with third party styli. This may be heresy but I usually compare my M97xE with my V15 type IV with the OEM N45 HE stylus. Of course it doesn't compare favorably to my V15 with the N35 MR stylus, but that stylus costs 4 times as much (if you can find one) as the M97xE cartridge and stylus brand new.

With regards to matching up with the SL23....

1) Tonearm mass is solidly mid-mass, the M95 and M97 are high compliance - so there is a possible mismatch - damping becomes an important feature due to that mismatch... M97xE is therefore the better choice due to the damping brush.

2) Inductance of the two bodies are much of a muchness - with the 95 being 700mH, and the 97 being 650mH (according to spec, manufacturing variation can be higher than +/-10%) - best to consider these much of a muchness.

3) The SAS stylus is higher compliance than the OEM N97xE stylus....

In terms of the earlier Shure models being better than the current ones, it is primarily a stylus quality issue - The premium Shure styli of yesteryear are a fading memory.... todays N97xE stylus is a good design, but has quality control issues, and quite a few people have had to have them exchanged as the first was faulty .....

So IMO - the 95 and 97 bodies are the same - I am not sure whether you can fit the 97 styli with brush to the 95 body - and therefore would prefer the 97 regardless of whether I am getting a stylus with or without brush simply because it has the flexibility either way.

If we were comparing on original NOS M95ed vs current M97xE, and the comparison was on a low mass arm (or a fluid damped arm) - I would probably pick the M95ed as the better combo.

On the SL23 the M97xE is likely to be better due to the damping brush.

And if opting for a SAS stylus I would still go for the M97 body as providing more options

bye for now

David

Frank, considering everything, especially money, I'd still tend to agree with David's recommendation of the more-spendy M97xE-SAS because in my experience damping is an important and too-often-overlooked refinement of LP playback, and if the resultant sound is a tad bright (the M97xE has significantly lower inductance in real-world measurements), that's an easy fix.

But are you going to end up with both M95 and M97xE bodies no matter what, or will you need to decide to purchase one or the other (but not both)?

:thmbsp:

Again , thanks everyone for chiming in

wualta said:

But are you going to end up with both M95 and M97xE bodies no matter what, or will you need to decide to purchase one or the other (but not both)?

Click to expand...

Just one... Leaning towards getting a new M97xE

TT is for a family member who will be happy with either

Which would be the best choice between the V15 III body or the M97xE body both using the SAS? I have both. The V15 is not being used. No stylus.
However, the M97x is being used with the SAS. I love it. But would the V15 be better?

My stuff:
Sota Sapphire with Sumiko FT-3 arm
Sansui AU-919 (recapped)
Vandersteen model one

montelatici said:

Actually, I think I prefer (marginally) the M97xE to the M95ED with the OEM styli. Don't know about how they sound with third party styli. This may be heresy but I usually compare my M97xE with my V15 type IV with the OEM N45 HE stylus. Of course it doesn't compare favorably to my V15 with the N35 MR stylus, but that stylus costs 4 times as much (if you can find one) as the M97xE cartridge and stylus brand new.

Click to expand...

You know, I think I usually prefer the nature of the M97xE over the M95ED, as well. (I still disagree with your statement that it will beat the AT150MLX, but thats a different argument for a different thread... ) The M97xE is a little darker, and perhaps slightly less detailed, but so much smoother. For shorter, higher volume listening sessions, I'd choose the M95ED. For hours of listening, the M97xE.

Frank Sol, if you don't already have an M97xE, by all means, get one. What's great about those, is that they are still supported by Shure, and OEM styli are still being produced. Even if you don't use the SAS on this cartridge body, the OEM styli aren't bad, and are the last vestige of Shure's hi-fi phono cartridge production. These styli sound great on beat up records and work well with old mono records, too. The stabilizer will mate this cartridge to your Technics tonearm quite well. (I have an SL-23, and have used the M97xE on it with great results.)

Yes, Frank S, if you're going to have to go out and buy one of these cartridges, get the M97xE, and don't worry about the SAS for it (buy one for yourself to insert surreptitiously when you come over for a visit!). A [presumably non-audiophile] family member will find the brush useful for dust purposes (show them how to clean it) and won't get excited about the "audiophile" curve.
.

The recommended load for the M95ED was originally 47k ohms with 400-500 pf, if that matters.

ghamilton said:

Which would be the best choice between the V15 III body or the M97xE body both using the SAS? I have both. The V15 is not being used. No stylus.
However, the M97x is being used with the SAS. I love it. But would the V15 be better?

My stuff:
Sota Sapphire with Sumiko FT-3 arm
Sansui AU-919 (recapped)
Vandersteen model one

Click to expand...

theoretically yes.... the V15III has laminated pole pieces which reduces eddy currents at higher frequencies...

the high end should be cleaner and more extended

The effect is however subtle - and the advantages of the damper brush are much more pronounced..... choosing the V15III requires giving up the damper brush, so it only makes sense if your arm is of appropriately low mass and/or fluid damped....