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S/N and Dynamic Range- have we been conned?

restorer-john

restorer-john

Addicted Member
Who looked at S/N ratios and bought the biggest number because they thought it was better? Who thinks that a better dynamic range figure actually means anything?

Has anyone ever considered the signal to noise ratio or dynamic range figure as including both the electrical noise floor AND the physical noise the actual component makes, because a wonderful electrical figure is meaningless if your amplifier has a lamination buzz or hum (ie it isn’t actually silent) is it? Your music will disappear not only into background hiss, but also into a flurry of laser tracking clicks, transformer hums and buzzes.

Your CD player with an obscene Dynamic Range figure that you can hear the laser and transport mechanism across the room doesn’t really have a dynamic range even approaching its specs in real life does it? Unless you stick it in the next room where you can’t hear it! My CD player has a 118db S/N and I can’t hear it physically either when 1ft away. Another is specd the same and I can hear it physically across the room.

I bring this up, because big amps have big transformers and high output powers and with that comes high S/N ratios. I had Class A amps where the transformer was audible across the room- I sold them. I had CD players that were frankly highly regarded but you could physically hear them- I sold them too.

High Fidelity reproduction should come out of complete silence, both electrical silence and physical silence. I know our rooms and ambient noise level can be the limiting factor, but gear should be completely silent or it simply isn’t hifi.

Reviewers rarely talk about the physical silence of gear and it is, ironically, the thing you hear the most in genuinely quiet passages, especially late at night when the world is quiet.

What do you think?
 
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Dynamic range numbers only represent the recording. How can you expect it to include your hardware?

I prefer whichever version of a recording has the most DR. I don't like compressed recordings.

I don't know why, but I never hear transport noises or any other hardware related local noise. If I did, and it overpowered the music, I'd get rid of it too.

I really don't think we are being conned by DR data, not at all.

I think that if I had to listen to music so quietly that hardware noise degraded the listening experience, I'd strongly consider headphone for those instances.

Regards,
Terry
 
restorer-john said:
Who looked at S/N ratios and bought the biggest number because they thought it was better? Who thinks that a better dynamic range figure actually means anything?

Has anyone ever considered the signal to noise ratio or dynamic range figure as including both the electrical noise floor AND the physical noise the actual component makes, because a wonderful electrical figure is meaningless if your amplifier has a lamination buzz or hum (ie it isn’t actually silent) is it? Your music will disappear not only into background hiss, but also into a flurry of laser tracking clicks, transformer hums and buzzes.

Your CD player with an obscene Dynamic Range figure that you can hear the laser and transport mechanism across the room doesn’t really have a dynamic range even approaching its specs in real life does it? Unless you stick it in the next room where you can’t hear it! My CD player has a 118db S/N and I can’t hear it physically either when 1ft away. Another is specd the same and I can hear it physically across the room.

I bring this up, because big amps have big transformers and high output powers and with that comes high S/N ratios. I had Class A amps where the transformer was audible across the room- I sold them. I had CD players that were frankly highly regarded but you could physically hear them- I sold them too.

High Fidelity reproduction should come out of complete silence, both electrical silence and physical silence. I know our rooms and ambient noise level can be the limiting factor, but gear should be completely silent or it simply isn’t hifi.

Reviewers rarely talk about the physical silence of gear and it is, ironically, the thing you hear the most in genuinely quiet passages, especially late at night when the world is quiet.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

Can't say I have had this problem anytime I can remember. My tube amps power supplies do not buzz. From Quicksilver to Art Audio to AES to Electra Print. Many years ago my first tube amp was a Dynaco Stereo 70, and that amp did have some transformer noise. That is the only time I can remember it. My solid state amps never had that issue either, not that I have had many of them. But the Rowland Model 5 didn't, nor does the N.E.W. DCA 33.

No noises from CD transports. No noises from phono stage, DAC, or power conditioner. The turntables run quietly also. Even the air pump for the ET II tone arm is silent from the listening position, but it is across the room. Sitting on a small bit of foam keeps it quiet.

So no, this is not a problem I have experienced to any degree in quite a long while. Nor do any of my friends with a comparable level of gear have this issue as I recall. Not sure what gear you have owned, but sounds like you got some lemons.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
restorer-john said:
I bring this up, because big amps have big transformers and high output powers and with that comes high S/N ratios. I had Class A amps where the transformer was audible across the room- I sold them. I had CD players that were frankly highly regarded but you could physically hear them- I sold them too.

High Fidelity reproduction should come out of complete silence, both electrical silence and physical silence. I know our rooms and ambient noise level can be the limiting factor, but gear should be completely silent or it simply isn’t hifi.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

I think the piece of equipments under the discussion are either poorly designed or too poorly implemented for the cost factors.

I have loads of Class A (SE and PP) and they are all dead silent when you put up your ears against the chassis. I came across more Class AB amps with Transformer hums than with most of my Class A amps.

Then, there are CD players that are virtually silent while playing and then, there are many that are very noisy that you can hear the motor inside is spinning from the other side of the room. They are just cheap and made to work. They probably don't meant to be for real HiFi.

I agree All equipment should produce virtually no mechanical or electrical noise during the listening session for the pleasure of Hi-Fi.

S/N ratio only tells the noise floor of the equipment. But dynamic range tells how loud the equipment can reproduce the signal without compression (or clipping). So, both are important numbers to look at but it doesn't mean there will not be any mechanical hum from poor made transformers or electrical hum from poorly executed designs.
 
I've never had any noise problems with equipment and I lived with a Dynaco SCA-35 for the longest time. As far as specs go I always take those figures with a grain of salt.
 
Sheesh! Can anybody else remember riding in Dad's car in the fifties, and hearing the buzz of the car radio vibrator? We just turned up the volume on the radio.

My CD player makes transport noises (spindle drive, I guess). And no matter how hard I try to hear it, the sound of the music completely drowns it out, as long as I turn up the music to the point where it is what I would call normal volume.

Any, whenever I've attended a live musical performance, I've been aware of the ambient noise of the venue, including HVAC equipment, sometimes outside traffic noise, and of course, the noise made by those in the audience.

I have three CD players, two are very quiet, one, as mentioned, is a bit noisy. I enjoy the music equally on all three players. The reason? I can't hear the transport at normal music listening levels.

Let's get real here. Perfection is an ideal, a target, but it is seldom reality. And, if you did obtain hardware perfection, there's the question of software perfection. The recordings themselves have noise on them.
 
restorer-john said:
Who looked at S/N ratios and bought the biggest number because they thought it was better? Who thinks that a better dynamic range figure actually means anything?
Has anyone ever considered the signal to noise ratio or dynamic range figure as including both the electrical noise floor AND the physical noise the actual component makes, because a wonderful electrical figure is meaningless if your amplifier has a lamination buzz or hum (ie it isn’t actually silent) is it? Your music will disappear not only into background hiss, but also into a flurry of laser tracking clicks, transformer hums and buzzes.

Your CD player with an obscene Dynamic Range figure that you can hear the laser and transport mechanism across the room doesn’t really have a dynamic range even approaching its specs in real life does it? Unless you stick it in the next room where you can’t hear it! My CD player has a 118db S/N and I can’t hear it physically either when 1ft away. Another is specd the same and I can hear it physically across the room.

I bring this up, because big amps have big transformers and high output powers and with that comes high S/N ratios. I had Class A amps where the transformer was audible across the room- I sold them. I had CD players that were frankly highly regarded but you could physically hear them- I sold them too.

High Fidelity reproduction should come out of complete silence, both electrical silence and physical silence. I know our rooms and ambient noise level can be the limiting factor, but gear should be completely silent or it simply isn’t hifi.Reviewers rarely talk about the physical silence of gear and it is, ironically, the thing you hear the most in genuinely quiet passages, especially late at night when the world is quiet.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

I have never considered S/N or Dynamic range. I have heard several very expensive systems that exhibit some sort of electrical artifact and even while in an audio store. As the systems weren't mine I did not troubleshoot the issues so I can't say if it was transformer hum, a feedback loop etc. But I do completely agree with your statement that gear should be completely silent or it simply isn’t hifi. Any noise at all that wasn't intentionally recorded would drive me nuts. :yes:

I only use a tiny fraction of the output capabilities of my big SAE 2600 amps so my nirvana never becomes violated by the sound of the cooling fans. I suppose if I cranked them up high enough for the fan to kick in I'd already be suffering from a loss of hearing. :scratch2:
 
restorer-john said:
High Fidelity reproduction should come out of complete silence, both electrical silence and physical silence. I know our rooms and ambient noise level can be the limiting factor, but gear should be completely silent or it simply isn’t hifi.
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You absolutely bring up some great observations, BUT what you want is not scientifically possible, so it should not be considered a requirement.

ALL electronics made by mankind exhibit SOME kind of noise, even if it is just thermal noise or "johnson noise". It's the reason why 24-bits still does not really exist in the real world, where even the world's finest converters cannot achieve actual 24-bit performance. (and may never)
 
Mister Pig said:
Can't say I have had this problem anytime I can remember. My tube amps power supplies do not buzz. From Quicksilver to Art Audio to AES to Electra Print. Many years ago my first tube amp was a Dynaco Stereo 70, and that amp did have some transformer noise. That is the only time I can remember it. My solid state amps never had that issue either, not that I have had many of them. But the Rowland Model 5 didn't, nor does the N.E.W. DCA 33.

No noises from CD transports. No noises from phono stage, DAC, or power conditioner. The turntables run quietly also. Even the air pump for the ET II tone arm is silent from the listening position, but it is across the room. Sitting on a small bit of foam keeps it quiet.

So no, this is not a problem I have experienced to any degree in quite a long while. Nor do any of my friends with a comparable level of gear have this issue as I recall. Not sure what gear you have owned, but sounds like you got some lemons.

Regards
Mister Pig
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An air pump for a tonearm? Please explain?
 
Sure, all things being equal, equipment should make no noise at all.

But exchanging a piece that sounds wonderful but buzzes a bit for one that is silent and sounds average is not a trade I'd make, given that 1 or 2 db of noise quickly gets lost when the music starts.
 
Guys, I think restorer-john is talking about the acoustic noise coming from the gear itself, not from the speakers. In fact, you could disconnect the speakers and just have the gear plugged in and operating to hear the noise he's talking about. So, thermal noise and Johnson noise aren't what this is about, since they are electrical noises.

Also, I don't think he's implying the noise is loud enough to drown out music, but rather is noticable when the music is supposed to fade into the black background. The black background is what is being obscured by this noise.

Actually, I used the motor noise of my DVD player to remind me that I forgot to turn it off the night before when I hear it in the morning.

Unfortunately, restorer-john, since what you complain about is an acoustic noise and not an electrical noise, we wouldn't actually want the electrical specs, like S/N and dynamic range, to be altered by the acoustic noise measurement. Instead, an additional spec of the acoustic noise would be nice, though.

I agree with markshan in that I don't see this as "us" being conned by "them."
 
kirk57 said:
Sure, all things being equal, equipment should make no noise at all.

But exchanging a piece that sounds wonderful but buzzes a bit for one that is silent and sounds average is not a trade I'd make, given that 1 or 2 db of noise quickly gets lost when the music starts.
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I'm with you on this. My Epicure M1 amp has a bit of transformer hum that I can hear when I bend over to turn it on. By the time I have stood up it is inaudible and even listening at the lowest levels I can never hear it at all. I think sometimes folks make too much of some of these things, like when they go over and crank the gain all the way to the top with the phono stage and get upset when they hear a tiny bit of hiss. In my opinion there is noise that really matters (that which masks detail, wreaks havoc with harmonics etc.) and noise that doesn't affect the music. Kinda helpful to recognize the difference between the two methinks?
 
just dave said:
An air pump for a tonearm? Please explain?
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This is the Eminent Technology II linear tracking air bearing tone arm. Instead of using an electric motor and servo switches to implement a linear tracking tone arm like the Japanese tables....this arm uses air in a manifold to allow the arm to travel side to side. A diaphragm air pump is located on the floor, and a section of air tubing travels to the horizontal manifold, and passageways distribute air in the chamber that the horizontal tube travels through. It slides back and forth effortlessly, kind of like the puck on an air hockey table.

Eventually the fanatics of the analog world ended up hooking these tone arms up to air compressors, and using regulators to get a higher level of air flow. The intent was to create a stiffer bearing assembly with the higher air flow. ET then released the II version with a higher capacity airflow manifold, and then followed it up with the 2.5, which has a larger manifold and a few other upgrades. The genesis for this arm came from the late 70's when Bruce Thigpin designed this basic arm architecture for the Colony turntables. In 1982 he founded Eminent Technology and released the ET Model One tone arm. In 1985 the ET II arm was released.

For linear tracking arms, the air bearing has been considered the preferred way to go. Not as complex, and technically more accurate than the motor driven designs, it is also easier to keep in adjustment than the passive designs based on low friction...such as the Souther. While it is still a bit more involved in terms of installation than a pivoted tone arm, it is pretty low maintenance once it's in place.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Turn everything off and listen. Traffic outside, plane overhead, noise from the fridge, central heating, occasional click from the house, computer fan. This is what I hear.

If I put my ear a couple inches in front of the speaker with the audio stuff idling, I can hear the faintest hiss and even that it is overwhelmed by the other sounds. I wish I could have a dedicated sound proof room for critical listening - maybe someday.

One thing's for sure. I don't like the audio equipment contributing to the noise floor, at least mechanically - motors, transformers buzzing, tape, CD transports ect.
 
Tinnkindling said:
Sheesh! Can anybody else remember riding in Dad's car in the fifties, and hearing the buzz of the car radio vibrator? We just turned up the volume on the radio.
.....
Any, whenever I've attended a live musical performance, I've been aware of the ambient noise of the venue, including HVAC equipment, sometimes outside traffic noise, and of course, the noise made by those in the audience.
.....
And, if you did obtain hardware perfection, there's the question of software perfection. The recordings themselves have noise on them.
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Yes, I remember the vibrators. Not unlike the ever present 60 Hz hum in the typical table radio.

When I first got into audio in the 1960s, and was discussing stereo reproduction, a friend suggested that if we want to recreate the live performance, we need someone coughing at the rear left, a candy wrapper at the right, etc.

Equipment noise specs should maybe have 2 parts. One would be electricla, the other, mechanical. My Harman Kardon Citation 24 power amplifier had a mechanical buzz from the power transformern, totally unacceptable for that caliber of equipment. I was able to remount it using longer screws and trapping the mounting flanges between rubber grommets on the screws. Problem solved.

As for noise in the recordings, yes, today, we can actually edit out individual notes, but the great performances are mostly older. Toscannini (some will argue that he was the greatest conductor of the 20th century) was retired before stereo recording. Many of these older performances (Mercury Living Presence, RCA Living Stereo, etc.) have masters that are analog tape, complete with hiss and other artifacts.
 
Tinnkindling said:
Sheesh! Can anybody else remember riding in Dad's car in the fifties, and hearing the buzz of the car radio vibrator? We just turned up the volume on the radio.

My CD player makes transport noises (spindle drive, I guess). And no matter how hard I try to hear it, the sound of the music completely drowns it out, as long as I turn up the music to the point where it is what I would call normal volume.

Any, whenever I've attended a live musical performance, I've been aware of the ambient noise of the venue, including HVAC equipment, sometimes outside traffic noise, and of course, the noise made by those in the audience.

I have three CD players, two are very quiet, one, as mentioned, is a bit noisy. I enjoy the music equally on all three players. The reason? I can't hear the transport at normal music listening levels.

Let's get real here. Perfection is an ideal, a target, but it is seldom reality. And, if you did obtain hardware perfection, there's the question of software perfection. The recordings themselves have noise on them.
Click to expand...

No. No I can't. Born in 66. Bet it was an improvement from hearing the horses snort, grunt, and whinny when pulling the carriage though! :D



Regards
Mister Pig
 
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