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The horn sound- benefits, shortcomings

thedelihaus

thedelihaus

Nocturnal transmissions
So far I've come across a few posts that are very much in favor of the "horn" sound, and a very few that dislike it.

Horn fans, what is your attraction to the horn design? Is there a reason it is used on PA systems that relates to a good reason to be used on home speakers? What are the shortcomings of the design.

Lastly, who is making a horn design, of quality, nowadays, so that I can actually go listen to one?

Thanks for your time,
Paul
 
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Paul Klipsch would always say that horns sounded better because they have low I.M.
(intermodulation) distortion. This would be because the horn is a more efficient coupling to the room resulting in less cone; or dome motion for a given loudness level.

There is some logic to this as any speaker distorts more the further it must travel from it's resting position.

To be fair to non-horn lovers out there it should be said that they are not in the minority. Horns (in the past, at least) would produce a rougher response than domes or cones and they exhibit more directionality as well. This caused many to dismiss a speaker as having a "horn" sound. Klipsch's tractrix horn has helped alot, through computer analysis- where as in the past it was more hit and miss in design. There's always a trade-off in speaker designing.

P.A. systems like to use horns because it causes large increases in efficiency giving far louder output for a given wattage. Also the inherent directional characteristic of horns is beneficial in P.A. where you want to aim the sound at the audience- say on a dance floor.

I like horns myself because I value loudspeaker efficiency (long tiime fan of Cerwin Vega, Altec Lansing and Klipsch). When you look at the numbers it's hard to ignore a 10 decibel jump in sensitivity- or higher. That translates into needing one tenth the amplifier output for a given loudness level. Put 100 watts into a horn speaker and you leave all other designs behind in output level.
 
To add to that, a well designed horn has a clarity that is difficult to achieve with other designs. The last horn that I heard was a British Vitavox and it displayed, what is to me, the horn's only drawback. It was easily 5 feet high and a good three feet or more in width, so you need two very empty corners.

Rob
 
I agree with lab. :yes:

Horns to some folks sound harsh... to me I think it's because they're so revealing.

I run a pair of Aztec Gauguin III that have a horn midrange and tweeter.

With some units, they will sound harsh... but with the right units... they sound oh
so sweet! :thmbsp:

Horns are less forgiving than other designs so it's tough to find a good design sometimes.
Then you have to find the right equipment, but in my opinion, it's pure music nirvana when
you do! :D

Scott
 
Actually, I like horns for just the opposite reason of many. While horns are touted for their efficiency that tanslates to high output for the given watts in realtion to other speakers, I find their greatest attribute to be at low listening levels where most dynamic speakers simply can not articulate. A horn based system does not lose the detail. The negative of course is that ss amps at low power tend to have higher levels of noise and distortion so it becomes more critical to properly match the amp/speaker combination to the levels you will listen at. I have a set of Klispch Heresy IIs and when mate to several units is very good but these same units at low levels are too noisy. Happily since the speakers do not need large amounts of power a small powered amp will deliver at both average levels and lower levels. I actually find some of the lower end models of a series do better with them than the high powered totl.

Dynamic speakers can have from 5 to 10% distortion. Horns, planars and electrostatics have far lower distrotion components and these actually can be disliked by those used to dynamic drivers or listen to electronic music, especially guitar where the amps actually are voiced to deliver higer levels of distortion.

If you want to try a set of horns, depending on you budget look for a set of Klipsch Cornwalls or Heresys. The 1st type Heresys use metal horns and lend themselves better to voicing (read moding) than the later IIs. Modding is not difficult and can dramaticlly change the voicing of horns and for the most part is reversilble. The Klipsch heritage units (Klipschorn, LScala, Belles, Cornwalls and Heresy) have a pretty consistent resale value so unless you overpay for a set, you should be able to recoup your money if you decide to move on.
 
merrylander: To add to that, a well designed horn has a clarity that is difficult to achieve with other designs.
Click to expand...

Rob pretty much summed it up for me. The clarity or detail that a horn can provide is like nothing else if done right. On the other hand, it can be that kind of clarity that can put people off. All horn designs are not created equal and amplification choice is critical IMO.

I will give you an example....
I have owned many speakers tht have incorporated horns into their designs. Including Klipsch, Altec, ElectroVoice and Frazier. When I first "auditioned" the Fraziers, I did so with them hooked up to a 15-20w/ch Akai receiver. They sounded big and loud with a lot of PA system to them. In other words, they sounded like **** but I could sense their potential. After getting them home I hooked them up to a tube integrated and they were transformed into a very nice sounding speaker. All the brash PA sound was smoothed out but the clarity and detail with vocals and individual instruments remained.

Tubes on Horns have always been the ticket for me but Im sure others have had success with SS.

RC
 
Brian: I find their greatest attribute to be at low listening levels where most dynamic speakers simply can not articulate.
Click to expand...


Brian, you snuck post in while I was putting mine together. You bring up a very good point that strikes home with me. Most of my listening is done at low or moderate levels and your absolutly right. :thmbsp:


RC
 
While there is a tendency to assume that dispersion is a good thing, the more dispersion a speaker has, the more it interacts with the room, with secondary response (reflections) coming from all over the place, delayed by the longer pathlengths taken. And since dispersion is related to driver size relative to frequency, the amount of dispersion is usually not uniform at all. This can foul up both the frequency response and the time/phase relationships at the ear.
The omnidirectional croowd wants to make sure that all frequencies are equally dispersed, so equally interacting. Standard speakers can have a fairly uniform off axis response, but not easily -- usually you end up with individually baffled drivers like the DQ 10 or the Vandersteens. Of course Bose goes with splashing sound all around.
But horns not only act to couple the driver to the air, they also act as waveguides, so they minimize the secondary response. This has a good deal to do with their percieved clarity. At the same time, there aren't those secondary responses to coverup frequency irregularities, so a poorly designed horn is likely to sound pretty bad.
 
With a properly designed horn, I think the biggest advantage is directivity. Followed by sensitivity.

It's extremely difficult to make a horn that is neutral sounding. I know that a lot of people really like Edgar Horns. To date, I have yet to hear one that sounds good. If you listen and know it's a horn speaker sight unseen, I find that to be a design failure. Some of the best horns I have heard have had the throat of the horn stuffed with various materials. Don't know enough of the physics of each material to know what exactly it alters (and don't have time to get into the parts I do understand) but they keep the sensitivity and directivity without the honkiness I find in tractix horn based systems. I did have the opportunity to hear some horns made by Lambda Acoustics (Unity Horns) with a pair of their TD15X woofers per side and was quite pleased with them. At the time, they were the best speakers I had come across.
 
The only question I didn't see answered is "who's making horns today?" Well, there are plenty: Klipsch still makes the K-Horn, LaScala, and the Heresy, and just start making the Cornwall (direct radiator bass, like the Heresy) again. Dunno if there are any local dealers in MA area. The best modern horn IME is the Edgarhorn Titan. There are some in MA (maybe even a bunch), but I don't think there are dealers, per se.

If you want to hear a pair of Cornwalls, come up to my house!
 
I posted about this yesterday but I recently bought some used speakers. The largest I was told had been used as a subwoofer in a Chicago theater. The only marking on the back is on a small panel...
Heppner Sound, Round Lake, IL, Model VH-I, 8 OHMS, 2 amp fuse

What I didn't understand about this is was a large metal ALTEC horn (H-811 B HORN) that had been screwed on top, yet it isn't wired to the unit. Also there is no fuse and no hook ups. Just two wires that stick out the top corner. I think it may have just been taken down without much care and was considering not reconnecting the horn, It didn't make sense on a subwoofer. Now I think I should, any suggestions or links about doing this the right way?
 
vehder said:
I posted about this yesterday but I recently bought some used speakers. The largest I was told had been used as a subwoofer in a Chicago theater. The only marking on the back is on a small panel...
Heppner Sound, Round Lake, IL, Model VH-I, 8 OHMS, 2 amp fuse

What I didn't understand about this is was a large metal ALTEC horn (H-811 B HORN) that had been screwed on top, yet it isn't wired to the unit. Also there is no fuse and no hook ups. Just two wires that stick out the top corner. I think it may have just been taken down without much care and was considering not reconnecting the horn, It didn't make sense on a subwoofer. Now I think I should, any suggestions or links about doing this the right way?
Click to expand...
The Heppner was probably a woofer with a horn, not a true subwoofer. Subs by definition, fill in the bottom octave of bass that usually missing from speakers. Unfortunately, the term "subwoofer" gets applied to things that are nothing of the sort these days by the industry.
 
Hi,
This is my first venture into Audiokarma and I feel it to be the right thread as I own Horn speakers.
I have at the moment the Zingali Overture3 and bought them on the strengths of the Zingali Home Monitor range. There is no denying the quality of these speakers but I am going to change them for the ART Emotion.The reason being that also the Zingalis are superbly revealing and dynamic I feel they can sound harsh at times and this spoils the experience for me. I do run an all valve system. So I guess it depends on the individual and what he/she finds enjoyable.
I for one look forward to my new Speakers,should be with me the end of the month.

Eloy
 
Hi Eloy, welcome to AK.

I have never heard your Zingali's but you are right. Sometimes horns can be great at first blush but get a little fatiguing during long listening sessions. I have had that experience in the past but when the are right, the are very right to my ears.
Keep us posted as to the arrival of your new speakers and your thoughts and comparisons.

RC
 
The attraction for me started over 30 years ago when i didn't know what a horn speaker was or care for that matter. It was the fact that when I first heard the speakers I have I noticed the sound seemed pure to me. Moreso than the other speakers I listened to. The only speaker at the time that beat them were the K-horns which had just arrived in Portland along with Paul Klipsch to demo them. I couldn't afford them and knew I'd seldom live in a place where I had a large room with empty corners so never pursued getting K-horns.
I know nothing about speaker design or electronics. I do know what sounds good to me and that's what I'm after. Like has been mentioned before horns will definetly let you know what the weakest link in your system is :)
 
I like good horns for their clarity and dynamics, very few direct radiators can match horns in those areas.

As has been mentioned horns are very good for low level listening, here their intrinsic clarity really shines.

Between 35 years in this hobby and being in a horn club I've heard many horns, both turnkey and DIY and there are surely some bad horns out there and if nothing is better than a good horn it's also true that nothing is worse than a bad one. IMO.
 
Thanks for the welcome. You are right, at first it's great and most of the time it's great, but ever so often I get some harshness which I will not tolerate. I am an Vinylholic and tube fan so we will see what the new Speaker will bring to the table. I had no plans to spent any more money this year but this just has to be.
Take it easy

Eloy
 
You asked your question to horn fans, and I am not generally one. However, Edgarhorns have some qualities that I liked.

And quite frankly, I heard a set of Avantgarde horns that delivered some of the finest sound I've heard from any speakers, albeit at $70,000 or so. Does make me wonder about their Unos or Duos.
 
All I know about horns is I have piles of them i have never heard :D

Here is about half my "collection"
 

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