Old 90s Sugden separates, wow...

Hello. I am wondering if other people can relate to something I have experienced lately and perhaps help me better understand it.
For about a year now, I have been restlessly moving from amp to amp (always somehow satisfied, never fully so) until I finally settled about three months ago on an ex-demo pair of Rega Exon 3 power amps and a Rega Cursa 3 preamp to complement a Rega Apollo cd player and Rega P3-24 turntable feeding a much-loved pair of Ascend Sierra-1 speakers.

I was (and am, to a point) very satisfied with my system overall.
The music is beautiful, spacious, the bass is abundant and rhythmic, the midrange is lush - but the treble has always been a tad timid, recessed, distant, unexciting.
It's something I've learned to live with, otherwise appreciating the many other qualities of my system. It's just that sometimes, on certain material, I find myself a bit unexcited by the music playing, even albums I know I love listening to. Sometimes makes me want to turn the system off and do something else.
Considering Rega's rather warm house sound and the known issue with the non-NRT Sierra tweeters, I wasn't overly surprised and lived with the sound quite happily when I DID feel like listening to some tunes.

Whatever, right, one shortcoming isn't the end of the world for a system in my price range.
But it got me wondering if I even liked music nowadays quite like I did in my youth. Did I still have that fervent NEED for the blood-rush only booze, sex and music could provide? Maybe my once mad and blind pursuit for ever better Hi-Fi had finally brought my journey to a very sad end…
After all, my father once cared a great deal about his stereo. He is all too perfectly happy now listening to YouTube videos from his iPhone, on the rare occasion he listens to music at all.

All of this to bring me to my splendid discovery: a few days ago, by chance, perusing my local Kijiji, I notice an ad for a mid-to-late 90s pre-power Sugden combo, an AU-41 preamp and AU-31 power amp, for a really good price...
Problems? One: a single blown fuse in the power amp.
Great physical condition and everything else was said to work great. Regularly maintained at the dealer.
INSANE, thought I, for a Sugden...

Couldn't find much (if any) real info on the web, but I have of course grown up (in a manner of speaking) hearing of legendary Sugden amps much like renaissance children grew up hearing of wood nymphs and other fairylike creatures that live in some beautiful magical musical place that is rumoured to exist beyond the veil.
Now, I will probably never own an overly expensive system (lest my fiancé takes my balls, if not my life - and the life insurance that comes with it), but I wanted to know what the Sugden hype was.
Why such an enviable reputation? Surely a clue must reside even in their lesser offerings...

I sent the quickest email I could manage (hoping that my bad luck streak was done, having recently just barely lost a chance to get some beautiful Tannoy Berkeleys for 80$ [!!!], and considering the ad had been up a very short time and it was late in the evening, I felt my chances were decent, despite the fact those savage Kijiji scourers are always near and ready to pounce).
I received a response early next morning. There'd been a lot of interest, the guy told me, but that I had been the first (yay!) to contact him and thus had first dibs (love people who do business this way, BTW).

Without even hearing them, I immediately went over and picked them up.
Hell, the guy (great person, it must be said, who kindly welcomed me into his home and invited me to listen to his setup, that consisted of very interesting Esoteric gear and unbelievably gorgeous-sounding Dynaudio Contour 1.3 standmount speakers) even told me when I bought them that if I wanted to return them for any reason whatsoever, no harm no foul; he had many people waiting in line to purchase them.
Took a chance, for sure, but for the relatively low asking price, worth every penny for a shot at Sugden, was my thinking.

Obviously, I went out and bought - then changed - the damn defective fuses (pair of them on the left channel were dead).
FIVE WHOLE MINUTES of my life gone.
Then: wonderful music came through.

Now, the dilemma: it's only been about 3 days, but the level of excitement I get listening to music has jumped quite a few notches.

Notable differences from the Rega system so far and from memory? Much better defined imaging, left and right is much more solid; bass somehow, incomprehensibly, seems better managed and more tightly focused - and the highs suddenly have a zest and sparkle I didn't think these speakers capable of. Still not perfect, to my mind, but much more airy and defined...

I wouldn't classify the Sugdens as forward sounding, but the Regas as warmer and more laid-back. Suddenly, the Regas seem like the pipe and slippers amps, while the old Sugden is the young excitable rapscallion… that's just as civilized.

Now, I'm not necessarily looking for a "you done bad" or "what a great buy!" kind of reaction here from you kind folk...
I KNOW I have made a good purchase here.
What I am wondering is if someone can attest to the fact that an experience similar to mine is indeed very logically, understandably and measurably possible.
I understand that cost shouldn't be any ultimate indication of worth, but it usually serves, in my experience, to establish the league some components are meant to compete in.
Price wise, I am just not sure these particular Sugden components (app. 3k-ish new in the 90s) are meant to play in Rega's old top separates (app. 6k new in the mid 2000s)... Though there is about a decade's worth of inflation between them; who knows, maybe they DO play on the same field, after all... but even that is not taking into account what advances might have been made since then in amplifier technology and design.

All things considered, though, is it just me?
For those that know, is the Sugden really that much more exciting and fun, while remaining a smooth, composed amplifier, compared to brands like Rega?
Or is it rather purely "new toy syndrome"?
I mean, one way or the other, I plan on keeping both, if only to build another system with.
What worries me is the possibility that the (still) rather expensive Regas will get relegated to backup system status, while the (let's face it) cheap as dirt Sugdens take up residence in my main system…
Thoughts?
Let the newness fade?
For sure, I will let the system run for a few more days, but as it stands, I am TRULY loving the sound I am hearing.

The Sugden sounds different, but great. This sort of thing happens a lot in this hobby. Congrats on your find!

Batman move over, you are my new hero! Anyone that uses the word rapscallion as term of personification in an amp review is awesome in my book!

As far as differences, at one point, I had Arcam, Jolida and Acurus integrated amps. Different amounts of power, but similar price points. They all sounded good to great but sometimes they how they worked with different amps could be remarkable. The Arcam sounded the most laid back. Not bad at all, but almost always less engaging than the Jolida and esp less than the Acurus.

I always chuckle to myself at the 'all amps sound the same' folks because, while the amps may have similar measurements, how they respond to and with different speakers can absolutely make a radical difference.

Heck of a score you nabbed! Enjoy!

Great gear! Would you consider posting some pictures for the crowd?

cratz2 said:

Batman move over, you are my new hero! Anyone that uses the word rapscallion as term of personification in an amp review is awesome in my book!

As far as differences, at one point, I had Arcam, Jolida and Acurus integrated amps. Different amounts of power, but similar price points. They all sounded good to great but sometimes they how they worked with different amps could be remarkable. The Arcam sounded the most laid back. Not bad at all, but almost always less engaging than the Jolida and esp less than the Acurus.

I always chuckle to myself at the 'all amps sound the same' folks because, while the amps may have similar measurements, how they respond to and with different speakers can absolutely make a radical difference.

Heck of a score you nabbed! Enjoy!

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Completely agree about differences between amps.
I used to believe there was possibly some truth to (or at least some valid arguments in) the claim that amps should basically all sound the same within their intended operational limits, but it's simply not been my experience.
Now, whether the effect is all psychoacoustics or not, well, I just can't say. I simply know too few people near me who care enough about audio to do a true double-blind listening test. In my limited experience, however, I have heard sometimes drastic differences between certain amps. Whether or not this was due to any one amp being out-of-spec, again, I cannot say.
I would expect my ex-demo and recently serviced Regas to be up to snuff; I am not sure when exactly the Sugdens were last serviced, however, though the last owner assures me it was sometime a few years ago before he moved from Quebec city.
Perhaps it is now out-of-spec? Does that perhaps mean I prefer the sound of old and out-of-spec gear? :scratch2:
Who knows...
As for pictures, I will work on that. I know my camera is around here somewhere.
To be posted shortly.
In the meantime, keep enjoying the tunes friends...

Sugden has and still does make great gear. Unfortunate they're products don't get more exposure.

trhee said:

Sugden has and still does make great gear. Unfortunate they're products don't get more exposure.

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I completely agree with you, if my specimen is anything to go by.
Great products.
As for their level of exposure, I was led to believe from various reviews that this was, to some extent, intentional. They refuse to advertise and prefer to rely on word of mouth, which might explain why I haven't been able to find ONE negative review of ANY of their products and why I can find NO dealer in my area (though I am also led to believe they choose their retailers VERY carefully).
And, though I understand that a company needs to make money in order to survive, it's actually incredible the percentage of available budget most companies spend on advertising, often stupidly (Beats) and needlessly (Bose, not that they represent quality, but because their sheepish target demographic is bought and sold beforehand, from previous aggressive campaigns).
Also, selfishly, if more people in North America knew of the worth of any product signed Sugden (as they do, say, Naim or Linn or B&W or Arcam or Harbeth or many other well-liked companies from abroad - not to mention the much loved favorites Bryston, McIntosh, Krell, Pass, etc. amps), I just might not have had such an incredible deal, so I am a bit tiny bit torn here
The lesser known stuff, we all know, sells for pennies on the dime and often outperform much higher priced components... so from a buyer's perspective, let the sleeping masses lie.

oops

I seem to remember Ken Kessler raving about the Sugden A21a many moons ago in an article. Sugden always had a loyal following on this side of the pond. Glad you're enjoying the music again.:thmbsp:
Amplifiers are weird things.
Some measure well, yet sound uninvolving, brittle,or simply bland.
Others wouldn't get a second look from any self respecting 'audiophile' or hi-fi reviewer ,but in context of a carefully assembled system somehow provides the missing link where synergy is concerned.
neutral + neutral + neutral = accepted dogma where many audio purists are concerned..but somehow, in practice...it doesn't always add up to grin inducing musical involvement ?...:scratch2:

melofelo said:

Amplifiers are weird things.
Some measure well, yet sound uninvolving, brittle,or simply bland.
Others wouldn't get a second look from any self respecting 'audiophile' or hi-fi reviewer ,but in context of a carefully assembled system somehow provides the missing link where synergy is concerned.
neutral + neutral + neutral = accepted dogma where many audio purists are concerned..but somehow, in practice...it doesn't always add up to grin inducing musical involvement ?...:scratch2:

Click to expand...

I really do agree, amplifiers are unique creatures. How they measure often means nothing to the layman to begin with and means even less in the heart of a system that is altogether different from the one it was measured in, which is all too often the case.
I would NEVER buy on measurements alone; every measured component made was voiced a certain way off of certain "reference" components in some system that most assuredly differs from the one I am hearing it in... each component having its own particular character, it seems to me questionable, to say the least, to have some random individual's appreciation or condemnation of any one component (beyond the realm of contestable subjective preference) standing as objective judgement over any other component.
The relationship between components in a system is crucial to the experience.
This is one reason why speaker measurements (drivers being what many people defend as the most critical part of a system) mean nothing. They are to be understood as belonging to a system; else, they are all potentially the worst AND the best communicators of music on earth...

Agree 100%. I also am someone who could care less about specs, topology, circuit design, etc... Rather I'd listen to components as well as how they work within the confines of the system as a whole. This is why, oftentimes, I'm quite disappointed with 5 and 6 digit $$$ systems that I hear at audio shows. Even though each component may be great individually, the system matching wasn't chosen very well along with terrible room acoustics of hotel rooms and such.

What's interesting to me is that the Brits (manufacturers, reviewers, audiophiles) seem to get this and understand this concept of system building and synergy between components more than others. This also includes the components such as racks and stands and their importance in isolation as well as the room itself and choosing the proper sized speakers as not to overload the room. Probably why stand mount speakers are quite dominant in the UK due to smaller sized dwellings.

Herdous said:

I really do agree, amplifiers are unique creatures. How they measure often means nothing to the layman to begin with and means even less in the heart of a system that is altogether different from the one it was measured in, which is all too often the case.
I would NEVER buy on measurements alone; every measured component made was voiced a certain way off of certain "reference" components in some system that most assuredly differs from the one I am hearing it in... each component having its own particular character, it seems to me questionable, to say the least, to have some random individual's appreciation or condemnation of any individual component (beyond the realm of contestable subjective preference) standing as objective judgement over any one component.
The relationship between components in a system is crucial to the experience.
This is one reason why speaker measurements (drivers being what many people defend as the most critical part of a system) mean nothing. They are to be understood as belonging to a system; else, they are all potentially the worst AND the best communicators of music on earth...

Click to expand...

agreed :yes: I've lived with a modest system for many years, featuring two sources and a pair of budget speakers that were chosen by ear as the best I could manage within a very tight student budget.
It took many years to find the amp that would gel the front end with the speakers but I ended up with a circa 1994 Rega Planar 3 + Bias (green) cartridge (and latterly an at 110e),a circa 1987/88 Ariston RD60 with an AT95E (also circa 1988) and a pair of B&W DM110 speakers( circa 1985/86).
It wasn't until I stuck a vintage but revamped Sansui AU-719 in the middle that I found no further need to tinker , tweak or upgrade either source or speakers
.
Minor tweaking to the final sound took the form of speaker placement,decent stands and some grado sr60,senn hd555 and hd 595s just to make sure that what I heard wasn't too limited by the price of the transducers and more by the way they were voiced.
What I learned most along the way is that where vinyl is concerned...the source is still king, set up is critical, cost is less relevant than careful matching and what you hear once you've finished depends on how well you balanced each component against the one that follows it or precedes it.

Once you can forget the system and just enjoy the music...life is good :thmbsp: Happy listening

trhee said:

Agree 100%. I also am someone who could care less about specs, topology, circuit design, etc... Rather I'd listen to components as well as how they work within the confines of the system as a whole. This is why, oftentimes, I'm quite disappointed with 5 and 6 digit $$$ systems that I hear at audio shows. Even though each component may be great individually, the system matching wasn't chosen very well along with terrible room acoustics of hotel rooms and such.

What's interesting to me is that the Brits (manufacturers, reviewers, audiophiles) seem to get this and understand this concept of system building and synergy between components more than others. This also includes the components such as racks and stands and their importance in isolation as well as the room itself and choosing the proper sized speakers as not to overload the room. Probably why stand mount speakers are quite dominant in the UK due to smaller sized dwellings.

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I have to agree with the statement that Brit gear oftentimes works better in smaller listening rooms.
Americans typically like everything BIGGER and LOUDER and MORE IN-YOUR-FACE than anyone from across the pond would think decent.
I believe such a mentality may work for some, especially those who have rooms to accommodate such boisterousness. Those that like it LOUD.
I am no such poor soul.
My room is a mediocre 9X11 hole-in-the-wall.
The Brits understand me here.
My room is small and needs no BASS reinforcements. Not that I hate bass; it's just that I don't need as much as any cathedral... English manufacturers have a LOT of experience when it comes to managing that. Which is why I am surprised my Sierra-1s are managing so well. In fact, they remind me more of Neat Motive 3 speakers in that sense that I care to admit...
From distant memory, I would state the Sierras are very similar to the Motive 3s, but with a more extended and tightened bass response.

It's funny you mention Neat Motive series speakers. I came very close to buying the Motive 2SE a few years ago. Had a few conversations with Bob from Neat for awhile as they would have had to be purchased direct due to lack of a distributor in the U.S.

melofelo said:

agreed :yes: I've lived with a modest system for many years, featuring two sources and a pair of budget speakers that were chosen by ear as the best I could manage within a very tight student budget.
It took many years to find the amp that would gel the front end with the speakers but I ended up with a circa 1994 Rega Planar 3 + Bias (green) cartridge (and latterly an at 110e),a circa 1987/88 Ariston RD60 with an AT95E (also circa 1988) and a pair of B&W DM110 speakers( circa 1985/86).
It wasn't until I stuck a vintage but revamped Sansui AU-719 in the middle that I found no further need to tinker , tweak or upgrade either source or speakers
.
Minor tweaking to the final sound took the form of speaker placement,decent stands and some grado sr60,senn hd555 and hd 595s just to make sure that what I heard wasn't too limited by the price of the transducers and more by the way they were voiced.
What I learned most along the way is that where vinyl is concerned...the source is still king, set up is critical, cost is less relevant than careful matching and what you hear once you've finished depends on how well you balanced each component against the one that follows it or precedes it.

Once you can forget the system and just enjoy the music...life is good :thmbsp: Happy listening

Click to expand...

Wow! I only heard the Sansui AU-719 a few months ago from a local Sansui-nut here in Ottawa and it was a beautiful and great sounding amplifier. It was feeding a vintage pair of really expensive Tannoy dual concentric speakers that blew my mind...
I loved the amp right then and there - as well as the speakers, of course, but they command an awful price, even on the used market...
As far as headphones, you seem to like the type I have enjoyed. Hell, I still have a pair of SR-60 about, cause they are classics and they still sound awesome, even though I barely listen to headphones anymore, now that I've moved into my new place...

trhee said:

It's funny you mention Neat Motive series speakers. I came very close to buying the Motive 2SE a few years ago. Had a few conversations with Bob from Neat for awhile as they would have had to be purchased direct due to lack of a distributor in the U.S.

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I have not had a chance to hear the 2SE.
Did you get a chance to hear them? They have a few distributors now, in Canada.
Here in Ottawa, at least.
I've only ever heard great things from their speakers.
Having heard the 3s (in the shop) and 2s (2s from a seller a while back), I have found them very agile and lively, bouncy even, but a bit bass light in larger rooms - which doesn't concern me, obviously, but which made an argument in favor of the Sierras for me...
But their qualities were undeniable, if you ask me. They were very lively. Very "fun" and detailed.

Had to google the Sierras but they look excellent and I bet they sound amazing in a small room.:yes:
They seem to be about the typical size for a Brit Box formula more suited to our smaller room sizes
( 1" dome tweeter and 5 - 6 inch mid base with some careful porting to help out the low frequency when placed within a foot or so of a rear wall).
I've never had any luck with big speakers due to space. I generally find these bookshelf 2-ways 'faster' sounding ...which actually suits some percussive music better than sheer volume and scale. There seems to be a gorgeous variety of finishes on those Sierras .:thmbsp:

melofelo said:

Had to google the Sierras but they look excellent and I bet they sound amazing in a small room.:yes:
They seem to be about the typical size for a Brit Box formula more suited to our smaller room sizes
( 1" dome tweeter and 5 - 6 inch mid base with some careful porting to help out the low frequency when placed within a foot or so of a rear wall).
I've never had any luck with big speakers due to space. I generally find these bookshelf 2-ways 'faster' sounding ...which actually suits some percussive music better than sheer volume and scale. There seems to be a gorgeous variety of finishes on those Sierras .:thmbsp:

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Oh, those Sierra finishes... Gorgeous.
Absolutely beautiful.
Mine are piano black lacquer.
The bamboo really does control the resonances to an unbelievable extent.
And the bass from such cabs? WOW! Unbelievable.
A solid mid-to-low 30s in my room, with a bit of a peak in the mid-bass region, as is to be expected, but which is unrelated to the speakers themselves...
I really love these damn music producers...
Punchy and clear with the right amp.
Needing but the faintest hint of extention on top, until you get the NRT or RAAL tweeter upgrade (my plan, someday)...

looking forward to some pics :thmbsp:

I have not heard the 2SE although I have heard the Motive 2. I thought the Motive 2 had bucket loads of PRaT and while the lower end didn't go deep, what there was, was tight and tuneful. Similar to my Thiel CS1.6, which is fine by me. It sounded to me like it would be a good match in my Naim system.

Bob at Neat explained to me the 2SE would be a bit more detailed while at the same time being more refined.

Herdous said:

I have not had a chance to hear the 2SE.
Did you get a chance to hear them? They have a few distributors now, in Canada.
Here in Ottawa, at least.
I've only ever heard great things from their speakers.
Having heard the 3s (in the shop) and 2s (2s from a seller a while back), I have found them very agile and lively, bouncy even, but a bit bass light in larger rooms - which doesn't concern me, obviously, but which made an argument in favor of the Sierras for me...
But their qualities were undeniable, if you ask me. They were very lively. Very "fun" and detailed.

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