Dayton vs. Clarity caps. Is there a difference?

stupidhead

aka Ratdogheads
Subscriber
Recently I have been working on a set of AR 4x that I got in a bundle deal. Ser. FX 256038 and FX 256287. On a previous set I had used Dayton caps and have been quite happy with them. :music:
With this set I chose to try some ClarityCap PX20 for these. Pricey little jewels but I was more curious than frugal. I also did a little reworking of the crossover board.

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Also I do not have a stapler like the factory used so I chose strategic spots and mounted the board with some screws and washers to achieve a tight mount.

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Stuffed the cabinets with the original fiberglass, wired up the drivers, rolled out some duct seal and put them back together.
These speakers are going to live in the workshop with the other set and this gave me an opportunity to compare them. All I can say is there is a difference. The set with the Dayton's is very good, but the Clarity's are somehow brighter, but not in a shrill way. Of course I played with the cleaned pots on all four and dialed each one in to my liking before comparison.

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:thmbsp:

side note: I have another set of these to do still, and I am glad I ordered four of the ClarityCaps!
 

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Nice work area; Big tables, Nice view and Starry Night on the wall. Classy!

Do you think the difference is justified by the price?
 
Interesting .. I switched from Clarity to Solens and found No differences .. On Tannoy grf's though.
Caps 'sound' differences are a Religious topic: A discussion with no resolution
As a guess there is More at play than just simple caps substitution.
Regardless as long as yer Happy... then that's All that matters.
 
I swapped out Daytons for Solens on some KLH 23's with the same result. Brighter but not shrill. Just my .02. Put the can opener away. We're not opening it! :D
 
I'm considering using those Clarity PX caps in a few speakers. I've read good things about them and they don't cost a lot.

Besides, they have a nice blue color and say "Made in Wales - UK" ...how cool is that! :D

I think the other half of these cap comparisons really depends on what you have them hooked up to.

I tried a few different caps on a Usher 9950C-15 tweeter and you could actually hear differences with each cap pretty easy.

I tried the same experiment with the tweeter on my Paradigm 5se-MkII and it was almost impossible to tell them apart. :dunno:

Thanks for the PX review. :thmbsp:
 
Can't say that I have any way of measuring anything, but I pulled out the Solens I had in two pairs of re-built EPI 100s and installed the nice big red Clarity caps and have been a very happy camper ever since. This is a totally subjective response, but I am a big fan of the Clarity caps. Having said that, I am recycling the Solens in the crossovers of a pair of Speakerlab 4s that will primarly be used for louder electronic sources, rather than acoutstic or symphonic music. I anticipate that the Solens will be just fine. I used the yellow cap Daytons in another pair of Speakerlab 4s and they sound quite good with electronic music sources as well.
 
I swapped out Daytons for Solens on some KLH 23's with the same result. Brighter but not shrill. Just my .02. Put the can opener away. We're not opening it! :D


Thanx for the input folks.

As for Solens, I put them into a set of 2ax and am happy with them there. I have two more sets of 2ax to do and thinking of switching it up on the next set.

The input btw is a Marantz 2230 rebuilt by patfont and the source is ipod 320 res mp3s or a crappy old Yamaha cd player.

There are a couple of reasons for this experiment and I am not interested in starting a thread that turns into a war. I am doing a pair of 5s and a pair of 3s in the near future and trying to identify the best caps (within reason) for both. So far I have not been able to find a 72 mfd cap for the 5s, so please list any resources for audio caps that I maybe have not found for my quest.

thanx again!
 
Man, you are quickly building a mountain of AR speakers! Nice job on your restorations.

No experience here with high-end caps, but with the more common popular brands, it's unlikely you'll find a single cap at 72uf, so here's a few ideas for very affordable solutions for the woofer circuit. Prices shown are per speaker.

$2 solution - for a 72uf value, use two of these:
http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10C-05-36-0-PB

$3 solution - for a 71uf value, use one each of these:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/electrolytic-cap-100vdc/bennic-31-mfd-electrolytic-caps/
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/electrolytic-cap-100vdc/bennic-40-mfd-electrolytic-caps/

$5 solution - for a 72uf value, use four of these:
http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10A-05-18-0-PB

$19 solution - for a 72uf value, use two of these:
http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PulseX250v/MPX25-03-36-00
 
Interesting .. I switched from Clarity to Solens and found No differences .. On Tannoy grf's though.
Caps 'sound' differences are a Religious topic: A discussion with no resolution
As a guess there is More at play than just simple caps substitution.
Regardless as long as yer Happy... then that's All that matters.

Caps 'sound' differences are a Religious topic: A discussion with no resolution

Drop the microphone and walk off the stage...
 
Lots of anecdotal subjectivity here and that's fine for a forum. I suppose if enough posters rave about a particular cap brand, it could become a poll result of sorts. It's sort of like listening to the tent preachers. After a while you become a believer in the religion as donkey Karma pointed out.

However, when objective science gets used (re. DBT), the distinction between caps becomes more difficult.

Those reading this should give it a try with some friends. Set up a DBT during your next recap and share your results with us. Oh, don't forget to apply some statistical methodology like repeating the switching at least 10 times, etc. and noting the listener's comments.
 
Not sure about sound differences but with one set of speakers I tried some caps and the result was horrific. I went back to the original style, pio, and the difference was not minor bug the difference between unlistenable and an absolute permanent long term keeper

On another set of speakers that I have always had a lovely/hate relationship with I went with a set of caps recommended by someone who focused only on that brand for most of his business and the result was amazing, turned them into also long term keepers. Here maybe other caps would do every bit as well but the results were so good there was no reason to experiment.

I am not sure the shotgun approach where Joe asks and others weigh in and none have actual experience with those particular speakers is any better than simply opening the catalog and throwing a dart. Such a huge variety to decide from and drivers seems to range from cap agnostic to super sensitive.
 
Interesting .. I switched from Clarity to Solens and found No differences .. On Tannoy grf's though.
Caps 'sound' differences are a Religious topic: A discussion with no resolution
As a guess there is More at play than just simple caps substitution.
Regardless as long as yer Happy... then that's All that matters.

I have been at this for a little over a year and I do not pose this thread to stir up any trouble. My apologies if historically there have been overly spirited debates on this sort of topic. Upon reflection the title of this thread maybe should have been worded differently.
I posed this question (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=575202) a while ago and got various responses. I am curious by nature and just wanted to do some sperimentin so I tried something different. Given the observations I have now made on these two very similar sets, with same model drivers and coils, freshened and working pots, and different brand caps (same value 20 uf) being the only tangible variation between the two. I have another set of 4x in the queue (unfinished pine!) and I intend to use ClarityCap caps in those as well. If they sound (to me) better than the Dayton set, and similar to the new set also with Clarity's, then that just confirms my observation. I understand this is not a scientific speriment, it is a hobby. I only enjoy sharing my experiences with this great community. I enjoy sharing my opinion as well.

Man, you are quickly building a mountain of AR speakers! Nice job on your restorations.

Thanx Robert, now eight sets and counting. I appreciate your showing the options and the Erse double 36's I had already contemplated is likely the way I will go. My end game is to host a day of speaker comparison here at the house, probably next Fall. I am behind the scenes remodeling and am putting together a 18' x 15' main listening room. Of course I will create an event and AK folks will be invited. There might be a little "liquid bread" consumed during this gathering.

Those reading this should give it a try with some friends. Set up a DBT during your next recap and share your results with us. Oh, don't forget to apply some statistical methodology like repeating the switching at least 10 times, etc. and noting the listener's comments.

right on spkrdtr. on that note, Diane (Mrs. Stupidhead) was enlisted to make observations. No input from me about which was which (blind as it were) and her comments were "more detailed, brighter" and for the Dayton set "duller, muddy comparatively". Don't get me wrong anybody, these 4x with the Dayton's, we have listened to for many hours and they do sound wonderful, the Clarity set just sounds better.....to us....at least so far.

Thanx again for your inputs.
 
sonicaps in my Infinity's...

sound great, come in many values...plus if you need an odd value they will try to help you out...
 
right on spkrdtr. on that note, Diane (Mrs. Stupidhead) was enlisted to make observations. No input from me about which was which (blind as it were) and her comments were "more detailed, brighter" and for the Dayton set "duller, muddy comparatively". Don't get me wrong anybody, these 4x with the Dayton's, we have listened to for many hours and they do sound wonderful, the Clarity set just sounds better.....to us....at least so far.

Hi Geoff,

As you know I deal with AR repairs and restorations on a regular basis for "Vintage AR" and others. An important thing to keep in mind are the variations in the response of 40+/- year old drivers...especially AR tweeters. Frankly, the differences you may be hearing are much more likely to be due to the drivers than the capacitors. I use pretty much the same caps for all restorations and it is not unusual to hear differences between speakers of the same model.

Roy
 
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Hi Geoff,

As you know I deal with AR repairs and restorations on a regular basis for "Vintage AR" and others. An important thing to keep in mind are the variations in the response of 40+/- year old drivers...especially AR tweeters. Frankly, the differences you may be hearing are much more likely to be due to the drivers than the capacitors. I use pretty much the same caps for all restorations and it is not unusual to hear differences between speakers of the same model.

Roy

Roy,

Thanx for chiming in, had a feeling you might. This learning process is a blast. I understand the point you are making and will consider that as part of the answer to this obviously variable equation. I do not want to spend more money on "stuff" if there is no actual benefit, nor am I the type to show off or boast about having/using "the best" item in a given scenario. Never really been a "keeping up with the Joneses" type. I do want the best sound reproduction I can achieve given the resources available.
The obvious question is how do you quantify the condition of these drivers when they are out of the cab? 2ax highs seem to be a great example of a moving target, as far as response 40+ years later. :scratch2:

Geoff
 
my initial experience using Clarity PX caps vs Dayton Audio Grade is the Clarity caps need more time to break in.

here they are going into AR3As

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Don't be afraid of the electrical tape. Everything is twisted and soldered underneath.
Besides, the engineers at AR have a history of using electrical tape and masking tape inside their speakers.
 
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baco, it's funny you say that. I was surprised with the Clarity when I fired them up as they seemed to settle down quickly in comparison to my recollection of the Daytons. It has become obvious to me that there are too many variables in this piece of restoration to be able to draw definitive conclusions.
 
Roy,
The obvious question is how do you quantify the condition of these drivers when they are out of the cab? 2ax highs seem to be a great example of a moving target, as far as response 40+ years later. :scratch2:
Geoff

Most folks don't have testing equipment to measure response differences, and unless you have worked with many specimens, subjective evaluation is difficult. Further, finding suitable replacement drivers is also difficult.

The good news is that unless there is something significantly wrong with the old drivers they often integrate satisfactorily in a restoration...with variations.
There were well over 400,000 AR-4x's manufactured over the better part of a decade. When possible, it is advisable to match the dates stamped on the magnets of the drivers.

Roy
 
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The discussion and debate about choices for crossover capacitors will go on forever, and while I do not have anything new or enlightening to add that hasn't already been expressed many times over with more authority, I really appreciate Roy's comment that directs the primary discussion back to the condition of the 50 year-old original drivers. Just like original capacitors that change characteristics over time, so do the original drivers.

The observation has been stated in this thread that the Clarity cap speaker sounds better than the Dayton cap speaker, and while this is a purely subjective and yet very valid assessment, it remains unclear whether this preference might be due to: 1.) the "quality" of the new capacitors; 2.) the condition of the old original drivers; or 3.) the number of cocktails consumed at the time of the listening experience.

I have my own modest stable of AR "4-series" speakers that I enjoy facing off against each other with different musical genres and input sources. My ears are probably somewhere between golden and tin - hopefully at least silver - but my particular observations among these speakers are never set in stone - - in fact, my opinions may differ from day to day due to where my ears are positioned, what music I have selected, or what my particular mood is. Indeed, they sometimes have slightly different original drivers and often different brands of capacitors, but that is half of the fun.

These AR-4x speakers are quite old, and well, let's face it - - - many of us are getting old, too. I try my best to appreciate the sophisticated measurements and graphed curves and tech talk that many aficionados create and share, but none of this objective information ever does too much to help me determine how much I may enjoy a particular conglomeration of speaker components within my own listening environment.

What's my point here? I dunno, nothing particularly specific - - am just offering some additional random thoughts and trying to add encouragement for everyone to enjoy this hobby, experiment within reason, and to trust their own evaluations.
 
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