Amazing Bass on Pioneer SX-1050

I love the strong, powerful and especially deep bass my SX-1050 puts out which is all original and not modified. It is stronger, louder and especially has deeper bass than any new receivers I've had.

I bought the Pioneer new in 1978 or so and used it regularly until 2000 when I finally caved in and got a surround receiver, an upper end Kenwood. Good bass, but not as good as my old Pioneer. Then when HD came around and I needed HDMI switching, I got a Yamaha RX-Z7. Again an upper end receiver with lots of options, power and ways to tweak the sound, but still bass is not as deep as the Pioneer. By deep, I mean how low the frequency of the bass goes. I use the Pioneer on a pair of JBL L100s in the basement. I also use the Pioneer and the Yamaha on a pair of JBL L300s in the family room with a switch so I can easily change which receiver is powering the JBL L300s. When playing the same music the bass is louder and deeper on the Pioneer. I love it!

Any idea why the Pioneer sounds so much better than these other receivers?

I see you have the loudness switch down.
Thats the way I run mine also>.Not everyone are bass heads like us.

Well you know we did not use powered sub's back in that day so the amps,
and speakers did the bass job.

Thats why when I go to listen to new speakers they sound weak IMHO
All HT type,these sound all the same for the most part to me, They are made
for a sub to go along with them.

The bookshelf speakers on my short list are all made for the whole HT set.
Hard to find somthing that stands alone. For two channel listiening.

BTW.. Nice looking unit you have there, enjoy.




Best-

Boozehound

Yup, loudness on and low bass at +5, mid bass at +2. I agree with you about most speakers made today. That's why all of my main speakers for stereo listening are made before 1981. They are all full range large speakers. I do have a center channel and rear surrounds but even those are medium sized. I also have a Definitive Technologies 15" sub, but it's not used when listening in stereo mode with the Yamaha.

The phenomenon you are describing is probably a component of "damping factor", from Wikipedia:
In loudspeaker systems, the value of the damping factor between a particular loudspeaker and a particular amplifier describes the ability of the amplifier to control undesirable movement of the speaker cone near the resonant frequency of the speaker system. It is usually used in the context of low-frequency driver behavior, and especially so in the case of electrodynamic drivers, which use a magnetic motor to generate the forces which move the diaphragm.

Speaker diaphragms have mass, and their surroundings have stiffness. Together, these form a resonant system, and the mechanical cone resonance may be excited by electrical signals (e.g., pulses) at audio frequencies. But a driver with a voice coil is also a current generator, since it has a coil attached to the cone and suspension, and that coil is immersed in a magnetic field. For every motion the coil makes, it will generate a current that will be seen by any electrically attached equipment, such as an amplifier. In fact, the amp's output circuitry will be the main electrical load on the "voice coil current generator". If that load has low resistance, the current will be larger and the voice coil will be more strongly forced to decelerate. A high damping factor (which requires low output impedance at the amplifier output) very rapidly damps unwanted cone movements induced by the mechanical resonance of the speaker, acting as the equivalent of a "brake" on the voice coil motion (just as a short circuit across the terminals of a rotary electrical generator will make it very hard to turn). It is generally (though not universally) thought that tighter control of voice coil motion is desirable, as it is believed to contribute to better-quality sound.

A high damping factor indicates that an amplifier will have greater control over the movement of the speaker cone, particularly in the bass region near the resonant frequency of the driver's mechanical resonance. However, the damping factor at any particular frequency will vary, since driver voice coils are complex impedances whose values vary with frequency. In addition, the electrical characteristics of every voice coil will change with temperature; high power levels will increase coil temperature, and thus resistance. And finally, passive crossovers (made of relatively large inductors, capacitors, and resistors) are between the amplifier and speaker drivers and also affect the damping factor, again in a way that varies with frequency.


The Wiki article also mentions that modern AV receivers have abandoned damping performance due to the fact that it is expected that a powered sub will be used.

In my Man Cave I have both a modern, 7+1 HT setup with the +1 being a powered sub, and I have a vintage system of SX-1050 and HPM-100 speakers. Of course, my vintage system is FAR superior in playing music than the HT setup in "stereo" mode. The bass is exceptional on the old school setup.

We recently had friends and their kids over, they were very intrigued of the old school setup, and were asking about the SL-1500 turntable because the kids never saw a turntable before. I actually have a Skrillex album on vinyl (dubstep, heavy bass trendy music that the kids know well and I like it too) so I played Skrillex at a very high volume and they were blown away. They probably listen to that music through things like a "Beats Pill" or some other integrated "full range" bluetooth-thingy! The bass was almost breath taking, they had their iPhones taking video as they were "OMG'ing" what REAL power sounds like!

Thanks for providing that explanation. It sounds reasonable. I'm aware that speakers generate signals when they move. We have a NuTone Intercom in the house and the speakers double as microphones when people reply to intercom calls. The Intercom also has a listen in mode which we have used as a baby monitor, originally for my children and now for my grandchild. I didn't know that can have a negative affect on the way a receiver and speaker interact and sound.

It would be great if one could get a 5.1 channel receiver that sounds like our Pioneers with the ability to provide Bass the way they do.

It was good of you to play music for your friends kids so they could understand how much better music can sound with real speakers and a good receiver. Most people, especially younger people, haven't been exposed to decent speakers with a quality source and driver.

I buy used Technics turn tables, repaired or refurbish them, and sell them on the side. When people come over to hear them they are always amazed by how good they sound. I point out that the receiver and especially the speakers have a huge impact on sound quality.

On my Pioneer, when I turn up the volume and the bass, the dial lights dim in time with the music volume and bass level. Does yours do that? I don't believe it's due to age as mine has always done that. It's especially noticeable if both sets of JBL Speakers are on at the same time.

I've attached pictures of my main system with the JBL L300s. I took the cover off of one so you can see the 15" woofer. They are amazing speakers that I inherited from an uncle who got them in the 1970s.

jeffpaletz said:

Yup, loudness on and low bass at +5, mid bass at +2.

Click to expand...

There's your answer.

Damping factor has pretty much zero to do with it, despite common belief. The exception might be if the DF is like 5 or less, which would be pretty much unheard of in SS gear.

No the lights do not dim, I have three of the 1050's also a Technics SL-1700
That I got off the bay, I put a new cover and cart on it..I think it needs a proper set up,it sounds muddy to me.

Is that a Velodyne sub in you pic?


Best-

Boozehound

Damping factor makes cone excursion more compliant with the source wave form. It wouldn't extend frequency range or power output.

I think that the real issue is that modern receivers marketed to the average consumer, with their small power supplies and tiny heat sinks, are just not capable of producing the large amount of power required for deep base reproduction. Heck, look at the speakers that are available in this market ... they couldn't produce loud deep bass even if they were hooked up to a capable receiver.

I think the real issue is that manufacturers of today's receivers have filtered out the low end on purpose because it means they can make cheaper amps for customers who have no idea what they are missing and don't really care anyway. Receivers today sell because of non-audio related features. Bluetooth connectivity, built in DAC's, iPod/iPhone integration, passing HDMI, playing internet based radio stations, etc. None of these features do anything to actually enhance the sound that we hear. Connectivity and accessibility have increased, while sound quality has taken a back seat.

Don't get me wrong, I make my living from technology, and I love the latest gadget as much as the next guy. But, before any of that, I loved really good audio and the equipment that could produce it ... and I haven't lost sight of it.

When I watch TV I use a modern receiver because it is convenient. When I listen to music, I use my SX-1010 and a pair of Electrovoice Aristocrats ... both of which I've rebuilt myself. For me, this is the ultimate audio system and I intend to stick with it until the end.

KB9KHM said:

I think that the real issue is that modern receivers marketed to the average consumer, with their small power supplies and tiny heat sinks, are just not capable of producing the large amount of power required for deep base reproduction. ...

I think the real issue is that manufacturers of today's receivers have filtered out the low end on purpose because it means they can make cheaper amps for customers

Click to expand...

Dunno how many times I've seen these reports and in the end it ends up not being an apples to apples comparison. They'll run the newer receiver, most likely an AVR, with the wrong settings or in pure direct mode with no loudness and all the controls set flat and profess it has no weight/heft to the low end. Yet, the comparison is to a receiver with the loudness on and the bass dialed up to +3 or +4. It's like...really? With those different setups this is some surprise they sound different?

KB9KHM said:

When I listen to music, I use my SX-1010 and a pair of Electrovoice Aristocrats ... both of which I've rebuilt myself. For me, this is the ultimate audio system and I intend to stick with it until the end.

Click to expand...

That's real nice. :thmbsp: I'd buy a ticket for a "sit and listen".

whoaru99 said:

Dunno how many times I've seen these reports and in the end it ends up not being an apples to apples comparison. They'll run the newer receiver, most likely an AVR, with the wrong settings or in pure direct mode with no loudness and all the controls set flat and profess it has no weight/heft to the low end. Yet, the comparison is to a receiver with the loudness on and the bass dialed up to +3 or +4. It's like...really? With those different setups this is some surprise they sound different?

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I never use pure direct or bass not increased. On the Yamaha I've increased the bass to +6 and it is not as bassy as the Pioneer by a long shot. I've also gone into the audio menus and increased the low bass in the 50-100 Hz range and still not as good as the Pioneer. I've also increased the treble to try to simulate the loudness on setting. Don't get me wrong, the Yamaha puts out good bass, just not the kind of deep bass you feel in your gut. Now if I have the Yamaha use the Definitive Technologies sub, then it has bass that is more powerful and even lower than the Pioneer, but then it is too much. It is fun though to hear the house and walls vibrate but not good for quality stereo music listening.

jeffpaletz said:

I buy used Technics turn tables, repaired or refurbish them, and sell them on the side. When people come over to hear them they are always amazed by how good they sound. I point out that the receiver and especially the speakers have a huge impact on sound quality.

On my Pioneer, when I turn up the volume and the bass, the dial lights dim in time with the music volume and bass level. Does yours do that? I don't believe it's due to age as mine has always done that. It's especially noticeable if both sets of JBL Speakers are on at the same time.

Click to expand...

Yeah I restored my SL-1500 recently, one of my most rewarding accomplishments in regards to vintage audio restoration.

On my SX-1050, no matter how loud I turn it up it does not affect the dial lights. You may want to look into that issue on yours. A few years ago I had a house wiring issue that messed with my SX-1050, caused me to bark up all kinds of wrong trees.

whoaru99 said:

Damping factor has pretty much zero to do with it, despite common belief. The exception might be if the DF is like 5 or less, which would be pretty much unheard of in SS gear.

Click to expand...

I disagree. DF is a very real phenomenon that affects SQ. My SX-1050/HPM-100 setup is one of the tightest hitting bass setups I have ever heard in home audio (I will admit I am rarely exposed to true Hi-Fi HA stuff). The bass is very controlled and extremely tight/accurate. DF does not make louder bass, as I have heard a few harder "hitting" setups, but DF contributes to bass accuracy. Some manufacturers have gone so far as to develop servo-sub systems that use feedback to monitor bass performance, which would be the ultimate form of damping factor.

A decade ago I used to run a Soundstream Reference 1000SX in my vehicle, which has a DF of 1000. Although I am skeptical of the value of a DF of 1000 since it was always assumed that a DF of around 200 was ideal, that amp did make my subs sound tighter than other amps on the same subs in the same vehicle. Cars are a crappy place for SQ, ported boxes and in vehicles resonances reduce bass accuracy, so a high DF was always sought after to counter the bad attributes of in-car SQ. It helps. Get the speaker cone under control and you have a chance at better SQ.

I am unsure that the SX-1050's published DF of 25 is very impressive, that must mean my HT setup has a DF of 0. Also, I did run my HPM-100's with a Scott RS-1000 receiver, same input sources as I have now, and the bass was noticeably sloppier than it is now. But the RS-1000 could still get very loud with the HPM's, just not as tight.

made in china said:

I disagree. DF is a very real phenomenon that affects SQ.

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Oh, no doubt DF is a real phenomena but the impact of it, no pun intended, is the question.

Here is a good article about damping factor. As shown, things don't change much until DF gets quite low, in that 5 to 10 range, or lower.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response

Any of your receivers ought to be able to get deeper bass out of the L300s than out of L100s, since L100s are only good for about 50 hz.

Maybe your setup was done incorrectly. More likely you are confusing deep with loud.

And they both do get more bass out of the L300s. It's just that the Pioneer gets a lot more deep bass than the Yamaha.

botrytis said:

Y'all are getting more bass because you have the loudness on and turned up on the tone control. That has nothing to do with the damping factor of the amp at all. You are dealing with the pre-amp in the receiver and that has more of an affect on sound than an amp does. Also, newer HT systems are setup differently in the tone controls compared to older receivers so you cannot compare the 2 settings.

And then saying modern speakers have no bass is just plain silly. If you like vintage - great - but unless you listen to ALL the NEW speakers out there, one cannot say that new speakers have no bass.

If you want bass out of an HT system - that is what a subwoofer does and does it very well (and hence the x.1 or x.2 on the system).

Click to expand...

I also have the bass turned way up on the Yamaha. I agree with you that HT receivers are different in the way the tone controls affect the sound. Also, I never said that modern speakers don't put out as much bass as vintage speakers. If the modern speakers are large enough they will put out a lot of bass and sound great.

My issue is the amount of very low bass and the lack of in on HT receivers.