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Turntable Relativity and Ratings

punprankster

punprankster

Super Member
i wish that there is a sticky or at least a thread here in AK that deals with how one turntable rates against another. i know that a great deal of how good or bad a turntable is is relative, but there has to be an absoluteness to the relativity.

for example, how would i know if say, a sony ps-x75 rates against a denon dp-62l or a thorens td 125. like if i'm trying to decide between a vintage ar xa and a contemporary sota moonbeam, it would be very helpful if there is a dedicated thread where this might be discussed in detail, so i don't have to keep on jumping around, searching, or posting new posts. perhaps that may be a great help to those who are new to the game, and be a guideline for those who are torn between one and another.

flame wars aside, even hotly debated comparisons would still be helpful as they can show a prospective buyer that certain turntables are pretty close to performances, and weed out those the ones that they do not need to consider anymore.

a lot of guys here in audio karma are a wealth of information about the topic. it will be a shame if we couldn't codify the knowledge for future reference.
 
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And so many opinions. Some may say the Clear Audio Statement is the best table ever made, many may prefer the simplicity of the AR, who is to say which is correct?

high_end_clearaudio_statement_plattenspieler_01.jpg



ARXAMods_010609_0791.jpg
 
Agreed, it would be a virtually impossible task, with so many variables amongst TTs.

If you have specific model(s) in mind, you can search for that model and there is probably a post by someone comparing it to something else they own(ed) that you might find helpful.
 
That would be a humungus task as some tables perform certain functions better than others. It also depends on you budget,IE that pic above of that gorgeous work of art and engineering.Probably does everything right but out of reach for most AK,ers. There are great vintage tables that perform well.I have a Technics sl1700 with Denon 110 cart that I would never trade off,good build and dead quiet.Also my Hitachi ht 550 which is a real sleeper and a looker as well.
Good luck on your quest.
 
I know. That 's why i said a big part of how good or bad a turntable is viewed is relative. Yet with all the experience tthat has been accumulated over the years, isn't it possible to be able to at least quantify if one is as good, or better than another? Like, a trchnics 1200 woild definitely be better than a denon 7f, so if there's someone interested in a certain turntable he'll know it's place in the pecking order.
I guess the triuble will start when two tables atre pretty close to each other in performance where a lot of things become subjective. But then it will still be helpful because then one will know that the two tables are pretty even in performance.
Comparisons have been done all these years. I just wish there's a single thread or forum that deals with it so searches would be easier.
 
It's not hard to research which tables are good and which are bad. But what your asking, as has been said is not possible. Add to this we all hear differently, the carts used on the 2 tables in question, the listeners preference and so on. Also, it's not hard to find specs on vintage tables. Sadly even that does not tell the full story.
 
punprankster said:
like if i'm trying to decide between a vintage ar xa and a contemporary sota moonbeam,
Click to expand...

One AR being in "stock" condition, and 50 years old vs a new SOTA?
no question there. Take the SOTA.....however......:D

Marc( a Linn is simply an AR XA with an arse-load of money thrown at it)Morin.
 
marcmorin said:
One AR being in "stock" condition, and 50 years old vs a new SOTA?
no question there. Take the SOTA.....however......:D

Marc( a Linn is simply an AR XA with an arse-load of money thrown at it)Morin.
Click to expand...

Well we are talking about a Moonbeam, not a Sapphire or a Star. And a new one is going to be lots more than an AR. With all that extra money, if the OP were open to being a bit patient, it could get the full monty Marc Morin treatment. While I have never heard one, from other owners I infer that the entry level SOTA would be hard pressed to surpass it. Of course there is the Vinyl Nirvana path, and perhaps the Merrill Audio services also....but I think the costs go up either way. Not 100% sure on that, you would have to do some research I think.

But this is just the opinion of a simple pig mind you.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Kingshead said:
And so many opinions. Some may say the Clear Audio Statement is the best table ever made, many may prefer the simplicity of the AR, who is to say which is correct?

high_end_clearaudio_statement_plattenspieler_01.jpg



ARXAMods_010609_0791.jpg
Click to expand...

About that Clear Audio.....I am picking up a .5 deg. phase variance in the second stage containment field. If they go to Warp like that they could cause a localized field breach. Anti protons could flush back through the secondary bypass valve and blow every conduit on the Engineering deck....but it is still a cool looking thing!:D
 
mike d said:
About that Clear Audio.....I am picking up a .5 deg. phase variance in the second stage containment field. If they go to Warp like that they could cause a localized field breach. Anti protons could flush back through the secondary bypass valve and blow every conduit on the Engineering deck....but it is still a cool looking thing!:D
Click to expand...

.....and why did I read that with a heavy scottish accent?:scratch2:
.....and why am i waiting on Capt. Kirk to give the orders a second time?:scratch2:

:D
 
There are at least two objective performance parameters that cannot be faked, can be measured accurately and are indispensable for a turntable to reproduce sound accurately. Wow & Flutter and Rumble (or signal to noise ratio).
 
marcmorin said:
One AR being in "stock" condition, and 50 years old vs a new SOTA?
no question there. Take the SOTA.....however......:D

Marc( a Linn is simply an AR XA with an arse-load of money thrown at it)Morin.
Click to expand...

Ok, let's get it started! How about the Linn vs the AR XA?
 
Pioneer PL-12D Mark II Specs

commando said:
There are at least two objective performance parameters that cannot be faked, can be measured accurately and are indispensable for a turntable to reproduce sound accurately. Wow & Flutter and Rumble (or signal to noise ratio).
Click to expand...

Ok, here's the specs for my Pioneer PL-12D Mark II:

PL_12_D_MARK_TWO.jpg
 
With violin or piano music some experts say anything over .05% W&F is objectionable. But, I think .08% is fine. 48dB SNR is not top of the class but better than many new consumer TTs, I think.

As a comparison. A consumer Technics direct drive (SL1300-1800) from the 1970s will have .03% Wow and Flutter and around 60 dB S/N. A Technics SL 1200 MK2 has better specs than these, but it was a far more expensive TT.
 
Grbluen said:
Ok, let's get it started! How about the Linn vs the AR XA?
Click to expand...

I've had two mid-late 80's LP12s here recently for tuning, tinkering, repairs.
one was shod with an Akito sporting a Ortofon Black, the other a LVX that needed the typical counterweight fix, horizontal bearings fix. shod with an upper level Grado. both needed suspension work/springs etc.

Nice tables, and a little nicer than my Ariston RD11S (now owned by another)

vs my XA, the sound field was different with both Linns, but both Linns sounded similar, cart differences being the biggest difference betwen the two. The Linn(s) has a denser (for lack of a better term) sound field, very center focused, very tightly focused. Rather fun sounding tables.
My XA (and some others here XAs) have a less dense center focus which gives the sonic appearance of a large open soundfield. More lively, and greater movement in the music. Lithe
 
marcmorin said:
I've had two mid-late 80's LP12s here recently for tuning, tinkering, repairs.
one was shod with an Akito sporting a Ortofon Black, the other a LVX that needed the typical counterweight fix, horizontal bearings fix. shod with an upper level Grado. both needed suspension work/springs etc.

Nice tables, and a little nicer than my Ariston RD11S (now owned by another)

vs my XA, the sound field was different with both Linns, but both Linns sounded similar, cart differences being the biggest difference betwen the two. The Linn(s) has a denser (for lack of a better term) sound field, very center focused, very tightly focused. Rather fun sounding tables.
My XA (and some others here XAs) have a less dense center focus which gives the sonic appearance of a large open soundfield. More lively, and greater movement in the music. Lithe
Click to expand...
Based on your description, I think I'd prefer the XA!
 
I have an XA and it hovers around .15% to .2% W&F on my annually calibrated Leader LFM-39A. It was my father's TT so I keep it around. But, your description of the sound is more like a wine tasting, very subjective. What is correct is an accurate reproduction of the audio when the audio was recorded. Sorry, but I am an engineer, member of the IEEE for over 30 years, so I don't accept the fluff.
 
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