LAST is Amazing, Wonderful, A Miracle!!

[Karma16]

HI,
I started this as a reponse to a thread started by ejman. When I finished I realized it may be of more general interest.

I have been using Last Record Preservative and Stylast since around 1980. I do not use their cleaning products though they are probably excellent. I have developed my own which work well.

The products must be used correctly. The Preservative and Stylast are designed to work together as a system. You will not get the full benefit unless you use both. And, you need a good RCM with a strong motor and a horizontal platter, such as the VPI models, to apply Last. This will really fill out the tool set.

If used correctly, I believe the claims made by the Last Company. If not done right, you get less benefit, or maybe, none at all. Read their web site. I know it seems like snake oil but it's not. I have been promoting Last for years but folks don't seem to believe me. I really don’t blame folks because the claimed benefits are pretty amazing. The only way to know is to try it.

I have run a careful, disciplined, long term experiment to either confirm or deny their claim of extended stylus life. I started with a brand new line contact stylus (a Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 cartridge). Without Last, one could expect about 1000 hours of life before wear forced replacement. This was my second cartridge of this type. So, I knew what to expect. Also, long experience told me 1000 hours is about the typical life span of all styli no matter what their shape. It does not vary much. After all, a diamond is a diamond.

I checked for wear both by ear and, periodically, with my Shure stylus microscope. It reveals the truth. I set up an hour’s counter to keep track of playing time. The experiment was simple but required some determination and discipline. With an experiment like this, it is very important to be totally consistent. Here is how I did it.

I NEVER played a record unless it had been thoroughly cleaned on my VPI 17 RCM and then treated with the preservative. I NEVER played a side without first treating the stylus with Stylast. There were no exceptions. Even if a friend brought a favorite record over to my listening room for a listen, I would not play it unless I first washed and Lasted it. Once, a friend got pissed but calmed down when I explained the experiment. I Lasted his record then played it. It was good!

Cleaning (washing) the record is very important. The mold release residue that clings to all records must be removed in order to allow Last to form a chemical bond with the vinyl. Cleaning solutions should contain alcohol which is the only solvent I have found that will remove the mold release and not harm the vinyl.

I deep clean the stylus with an electronic stylus cleaner and isopropyl alcohol…about every 20 records. This removes a varnish-like residue that builds up on the stylus. I’m not sure of its origin. It may be Stylast baked onto the stylus surface by the heat build-up due to friction when playing a record. It is easily removed with a stylus cleaning brush and alcohol. Be careful!

The result? After 4000 hours the stylus still sounded new and the microscope revealed no wear at all. The experiment is still under way. From all indications, the stylus will last indefinitely. Probably, the stylus suspension will fail before the diamond wears out.

I think Last products are fantastic. They do what the manufacturer says they do. They have other benefits that I can confirm. Rather than repeat them here, check out Last's website at:

http://www.lastfactory.com/Products/record_preservative.html

I realize that one experiment on one cartridge does not constitute a statistical truth. However, my long experience (over 45 years) with cartridges and my long term use of the Shure stylus microscope adds to the body of evidence that lends credibility to Last products and my experiment. I will continue the experiment because I am convinced that my records and styli are better off with Last than without. The experiment has become my normal record playing practice.

Sparky

 

[markd51]

I have used all of the LAST products as Sparky has, but began around '97 when I began doing business with MusicDirect, and a new Benz Glider was first installed on a new VPI HW-19 Table.

All I can say, is it is hard for any end user to thoroughly evaluate such products, as we of course do not possess the sophisticated equipment.

As I understand it, LAST Preservative works at the molecular level, and supposedly actually hardens the Vinyl Surface, and also acts as a coolant, lowering temperatures at the Stylus, which LAST once claimed can approach temps of 300+ degrees F.

How hard it makes the vinyl at the surface, this is of course an unknown, and I would suspect that it of course doesn't magically transform PVC into Titanium, as that would be ridiculous to think so. Let's hypothetically say, that PVC used in records has an average hardness on the Moh's scale of .890. Now how hard would the Surface be after a LAST Application, perhaps .896? I know I'm just guessing, don't take my figures seriously, they are being used as a hypothetical example of what to really expect from such a product.

And as we know, a Diamond Stylus on this same scale is 10, so in a "battle" between the two materials, the Stylus of course wins regardless. I'm not saying LAST Treament isn't perhaps a benefit. To say that 75 plays causes absolutely no wear in comparison to an untreated record, this is a manufacturer's claim, and very hard for any of us to proove without proper test equipment to come up with these figures?

I have read comments, that once a record is "Lasted", that this product is a permanent conversion of the vinyl, that no cleaning product on earth will remove it.

What film-residues you have noted on your Stylus after a number of plays Karma, I cannot clearly say what it is, but I would suspect, due to the reasons I mention above, about relative hardness of the two materials coming in contact with one another, I suspect that it is still baked on PVC. This is perhaps inevitable, and unavoidable no matter what.

I reckon it is why Stylus Cleaning products were developed, and LAST of course has thier own line to deal with such.

I'm not knocking such a product, as I used it, and used it for years. These products didn't seem to follow the mold of others, which I wouldn't wish to put on my records, such as Gruve Glide, or other types of lubricants.

So, I'm not saying the products are snake oil, and again, just like the cleaning threads that regularly pop up here, the use of such products must be an individual's choice, whether they feel the products used, and the results obtained justify thier cost.

I will say that the Glider I had, was religiously treated with both LAST Stylus Cleaner, LAST Stylast Stylus Preservative, and for a period, virtually all records in my collection were first cleaned with LAST Power Cleaner, LAST All Purpose Cleaner, then rinsed with Distilled Water, then Preserved-Treated.

I never noted any detrimental sonic anomalies caused by LAST products, and it did appear that I was squeezing every last bit of performance from my Analog Rig at the time, and took it as far as I could. Nor, did I ever note, or have any operational problems with the Benz Glider Cartridge during that time.

I did note though, that the Stylus didn't stay as clean as I would've liked it to be, also noted film build-up, and the dust bunnies as well, and I think I can attest that to sub-optimum methods of the manual cleaning my LPs.

I never had any Cantilever, or Stylus Bonding Adhesive issues, with careful use of the LAST Stylus maintainence products, and the Stylus Cleaner was effective at getting the Stylus sparkling clean again.

Like many others, my Glider "died" an unnatural death, like many others have happen to them. Doing a critical Alignment one day, the Cartridge seperated into two pieces, the adhesives holding the Cartridge to top Mounting Plate gave way.

During those ten years I had that Glider, the Cartridge always performed flawlessly up until that fateful day.

Many today of course feel the use of LAST Preservative Products are unnecessary, and of course, like I said before, one must make a personal choice.

Just like the various cleaning products that abound the market, if one never tries them-uses them, then one cannot make a fair judgement as to thier worth-value.

Like a fine auto wax, that may cost $50 for a small jar, one must determine if it's cost is worth the benefits-improvements achieved. Hope all have not minded my ramblings. Mark

 

[dogscanskate]

Sparky,

I totally agree with your views on Last products, at least Stylast and the Record Preservative. I use Stylast for every lp just like you. I just got so lazy about applying the preservative so this post of yours will have me treating a few more lp's.

Over time (20+ years of use) there have been no detrimental effects caused by Last products, if anything, the records still sound as good as the 1st listen. I change my cartridges way before they wear out, they just get old but they all have over 1K hours on them. They offer great bang for the buck considering they actually prolong the life of the stylus. In the end, the product has paid for itself many, many times. I still use my 1st bottle of Stylast that I bought in the early 80's and it's still 3/4 full. It just seems like 1 bottle of Stylast offers a lifetime of stylus protection. It lasts and lasts and lasts...!

This is one great company that offers great products and worth your consideration if you're serious about keeping your music library pristeen. To top it off, it extends stylus life if and only if you have taken the time to set up your cartridge correctly.

 

[ejman]

Great posts! (thank you Karma16 indeed much better visibility as a separate thread) Although I've used the Stylast as noted in the other thread for about 2000 hours with excellent results, I've not used the record preservative. This is because the bulk of my LP's are used/Garage sale/swaps etc sourced and I thought that applying the record preservative to these records would be a waste of money and not help all that much.

 

[orthophonic]

I too have used last products since 1980, wonderful product, the real deal.

I would like to add that the last preservative can sometimes improve less than pristine garage/thrift records.

 

[markd51]

I too have used last products since 1980, wonderful product, the real deal.

I would like to add that the last preservative can sometimes improve less than pristine garage/thrift records.

I would imagine, that other products, such as Gruve Glide would perhaps provide similar benefits, lessening groove-surface noise.

I see products such as LAST Preservatives as "Tweak Products", like CD Mats, Flourescent Green CD Pens, CD Demagnetizers, Wire Wraps, VPI Big Rocks, Cones, etc etc.

They are products in which different users will reap varying benefits, some will swear by them, that they hear considerable improvements, others perhaps see no worthy value in thier implementation-use.

I have concluded that having properly cleaned records is not a tweak. That there are guidlines to go by, and properly engineered products, and good methods available to enable anyone who wishes to go down that path.

As in another recent thread, about Walker Prelude Record Cleaning Products. I have never used them. But, I feel it is safe to say, that these products have little peer, that they have been properly engineered to extract the very best that vinyl can provide.

It is unusual, that I would recommend-endorse a product I have never used, but I believe one would be foolish to consider Lloyd Walker an unexperienced Audiophile, and not respecting the goals he wishes to accomplish with Vinyl Playback.

Although Karma had once in private email called me a "BS Artist", he cannot deny that "to reap the best performance from products like LAST, like he likes to use, that one should insure at least that thier Vinyl is properly cleaned first before application of any additives". Correct, or no?

I in part now argue the use of such additional products placed on a Record, and seeing it as just another contaminant of another form. Many purists wish to have nothing come between the Stylus-Groove interface, and I've become a believer-proponent of this school of thought, and process.

Since I've been down this path, I have made my own personal choices, I've plucked down considerable money to try-buy those products, and many others as well. Many have not, so they're on the fence so to speak, with indecision.

I suggest first, before going beyond, to the "Twilight Zone", with such "tweaks", first consider any possible shortcoming you may have with your cleaning system, and regimem. Once you feel you have approached the nth degree of cleanliness with you vinyl, then try a product like the LAST, and then decide for yourselves whether you truly like such a product, or not.

As I close, again, don't think for a minute I'm dissing LAST, or anything they make. They have always been very good exceptional products, and about my only major quirp, is thier very high cost. Consider though, that a bottle of LAST Stylus Cleaner, Stylast, thier Brushes, will "last" you many years, so they are perhaps not as exhorbitantly priced as one might first assume. Mark

 

[Karma16]

HI Mark
I think you are confused. The benefits of Last are tangible and real. They can be measured. It is not a matter of taste or belief. The only thing that person must do is to make the decision to use the products properly then decide for themselves.

To use Last properly requires dedication because Last will be of little benefit if used sporadically and improperly. This is not a typical foggy audiophile issue. It is real.

But only you, the user, can decide. I can only present my results. You have to decide to believe me. Once that hurdle is jumped, then you too can start to protect your valuable record collection and styli. I hope you do.

Sparky

 

[markd51]

HI Mark
I think you are confused. The benefits of Last are tangible and real. They can be measured. It is not a matter of taste or belief. The only thing that person must do is to make the decision to use the products properly then decide for themselves.

To use Last properly requires dedication because Last will be of little benefit if used sporadically and improperly. This is not a typical foggy audiophile issue. It is real.

But only you, the user, can decide. I can only present my results. You have to decide to believe me. Once that hurdle is jumped, then you too can start to protect your valuable record collection and styli. I hope you do.

Sparky

Confused!? No Sir, I have never in my life been less confused as I am now, with the products, and methods I use to maintain my vinyl, and Stylus.

That being, the VPI RCM, high quality Brushes, and Cleaners, always sleeved with the very best available inner, and outer Sleeves, which at the present are Mo-Fi Inner Sleeves, and Japanese Resealable Outer Sleeves on every LP in the collection.

And of course, as any good vinylphile, never touch those records!

I've also gotten in the habit over the last 7-8 years, that I NEVER cue a record 1/2 way into the LP. I always let them play all the way through, from start to finish, regardless of what "hash" I may have to listen through to get to the cut I want to hear.

I come to believe that dropping a rock (Stylus) in the middle of a record can be quite detrimental, and one cause of nasty pops, and clicks. Especially on the first few critical seconds of a track.

As I said previously, and you have pretty much said the same, but perhaps in a different way, first get your records clean. As we'll probably both agree 100%, it doesn't make sense to use such a product as LAST Preservatives on filthy, improperly cleaned records.

If the instructions of LAST Preservative are properly followed, there's little chance for error, but is senseless to be thown on top of a crudded up record.

Whether LAST will trap, and further adhere such unremoved various contaminants found on vinyl is an unknown to me, but I presume it to be so, that this product most likely will.

I know, if you are a proponent of LAST, that you do try to insure to your best abilities, that you're either placing this product on brand spanking new LPs prior to first play, or thoroughly cleaning any used records prior to treatment.

We actually are not so much in disagreement, but just perhaps coming down different roads to reach the same results-conclusions.

I believe this "sporadic" benefit you've noted with LAST, is due to the initial quality of the vinyl itself, and the degree of which the vinyl is clean.

A good product, yes, a product that can create a miracle, transforming previously damaged vinyl, no. Mark

 

[twitch54]

Sparky,

Long time no talk !

Hope all is well in the SW part of the counrty.

Like you, I've been using LAST for well over twenty five years now and am more than satisfied with my results. Having recently sold my beloved Grace F-9e super cartridge with 'mega hours' on it the new owner even replied back to me after the sale as to it's incredible tracking and 'playability'....I do believe LAST helped in that.

But regardless of wether or not you prescribe to it's benefits, pristine cleaning and handling habits are the real secret , IMO

Take care,

Dave

 

[jfine]

I feel like I've been here before.

 

[orthophonic]

I agree that the record must be cleaned to the nth degree before using last, however in my experience it does not trap any left over crud. Quite the oposite, it makes any imbedded
dirt release upon the next playing or cleaning.

As to prevention of record wear, I did a small experiment back in the early 80's when I was a club DJ, i treated a few
styrene 45's (notorious for rapid wear) and the treated discs
did not develop the "cue burn' so common with styrene records subjected to the rough handling and three to four gram tracking in a club environment, my conclusion was that if it worked in that environment, it would have to be beneficial
to the home user.

I agree with mark that raising and lowering the stylus on any part of the record will induce pops (there was a study/article
in one of the rags years ago about this) and last helps prevent this also.

 

[RickB]

I, too, have used LAST, STYLAST, and LAST Stylus Cleaner for 25 years or more. It does what the Last Factory says it will do.

It DOES NOT build up on LP's.

It IS NOT a coating like Groove Glide.

It has preserved records I bought twenty to twenty five years ago, when all I really used was the Discwasher to clean before playing...considering that I put them through that torture device, they are amazingly clean and free from pops...now, this is just the mass-market LP's, I did all my MoFi's and they seem incredibly clean and clear....

I would buy a new album, clean it with the LAST power cleaner then treat it with the LAST preservative, then insert it into a brand new VRP....never had any crud build up, no scum on styli, zip, zero, nada...clean, clear sound amazingly free of clicks and pops, and with a reduced background noise, compared to taking an LP out of the jacket, cleaning it with that damn Discwasher, which, in the end, really isn't that good of a device, and then playing it....

LAST has always been expensive to purchase, but those records that I did treat at the time I bought them are really a lot quieter than the ones I didn't because I had gotten lazy or run out of the preservative...and this is on LP's 20 years old or more!

I'll also agree that taking a thrift store find, for instance, cleaning it really well, and then treating it with LAST will also bring about an improvement in signal to noise ratio...

Today, though, (I do use it, but am out at the present time so my new Led Zeppelin collection stays sealed in it's shrink wrap) I mostly clean the thrift store/Half Price Books sourced vinyl really well with AIVS, RRL, and/or Disc Doctor solutions on my VPI 16.5 and play them before deciding whether to LAST them or not...why waste it on something that may not deserve it?

And that is how I found out that LAST can make old, used records sound better....


But I always clean the stylus before palying either side and treat it with STYLAST....my bottle of this has "LAST-ed" me for well over a decade!

.

 

[pmsummer]

I recently bought a large collection of used jazz LPs (75). Most of them had the little "LAST" sticker on them, which caused me to inquire (I just vaguely remembered the product).

I have to report that these Last-treated LPs are all remarkably free of surface noise, and sound great. I may have to pursue this.

 

[markd51]

Just a curious question for all you other LAST Preservative users out there......

I myself have, in the past 12 years bought 5 Bottles, I have a remaining 1-1/2 Bottles left.

The first Bottle must've been around 1997, and yes, at that time, I treated every Mo-Fi I have in the collection back then, which was about 25, or so, and some others.

The last time I bought the LAST Preservative was about 2003, from MusicDirect-Chicago, right before I moved to the Land Of Enchantment. Figured I'd stock up!

Between the first Bottle I bought, and the more recent purchases, I have noticed no difference in the formulations, all seemed to work-behave the same.

I once accidentally spilled 1/2 a bottle, trying to stick the little Pipette in to suck some up, and there went the bottle, tipping over on my Rack Shelf. With Bruce Lee speed, there was nothing I could do, but at least was quick enough to not see the entire Bottle evaporate right before my eyes! lol

One good tip I can highly recommend with this product, is do brace-support that bottle somehow when using, to not have what once happened to me! This stuff evaporates faster than you can say "Oh Hell"!

So, the question I ask, has any noted any differences with the older Preservative, versus the newer bought bottles? Does the Formula appear to be the same as it was? I was under some odd impression, due to the extreme volatility of this product, that it might've been some type of Freon? Or? Thanks, Mark

 

[pmsummer]

I let the stylus tip clean the record.

 

[RickB]

I never use chemicals on my LP's- I let the stylus tip clean the record. I do use a carbon fiber brush for dust though.

Damn, you've got balls, or too much f-ing money....I would NEVER do that...my albums are worth too much to me to screw them up like that.

Hell, I even own a Linn, but I don't fall for the Linn/Rega philosophy on cleaning at all....no matter what they say I still wouldn't do it...I even clean the stylus between sides with LP#9 and treat with Stylast...before each and every side...no way am I going to rub sandpaper or a matchbook strike strip against the stylus on even a $10 cartridge much less a $1200 one...

I've heard the difference that cleanliness makes. I also have 20 year old cartridges that are in perfect condition because of the hygienic way they have been treated and played...

My friends who have been on the receiving end of some of the 20+ year old albums that I treated back then with LAST and that I have since replaced with audiophile pressings, that yes, did have better fidelity than the originals...all have just been amazed that a piece of vinyl that old, and on a highly resolving system (no receivers and old Jap or Yank kabuki speakers need apply, rather think modern Thiel, Soliloquy, Maggies and high end MC cartridges on Basis turntables, etc...) was absolutely silent, no clicks, pops, background groove noise, etc., on the albums when they were played....

Of course, I did get my very first turntable that was solely my own back in 1967 and have been learning ever since...still have some of the albums from the early '70's when I started taking better care of them, I did lose a bunch in a hurricane in 1980 in Brownsville, they were in storage that got flooded...by the '80's though, I got pretty darn good at keeping the LP's pristine and that's when I discovered LAST....

The only thing that I have found that was as big a deal for my vinyl collection was when I bought my VPI 16.5 after using the Disc Doctor's manual record cleaning system since reading about it in the Primyl Vinyl Exchange ...the VPI was as far ahead of Duane's system as his system was from the crappy Discwasher and carbon brush...note, I still use a carbon brush, but the records are fricking pristine after being cleaned and the brush is just to take off airborne contaminants that are all too present in my 50+ year old house....

Yet, even after the cleaning, LAST treatment will take a dollar album and take a level of noise out that even multiple cleanings with RRL, AVIS, MoFi, Disc Doctor, solutions just won't...if there are pops there, no it won't repair them...but, I have heard it do some pretty impressive stuff nonetheless...

It's worth it...just in the reduced wear on the stylus alone, much less what it does for vinyl preservation....

.

 

[RickB]

Just a curious question for all you other LAST Preservative users out there......

I myself have, in the past 12 years bought 5 Bottles, I have a remaining 1-1/2 Bottles left.

The first Bottle must've been around 1997, and yes, at that time, I treated every Mo-Fi I have in the collection back then, which was about 25, or so, and some others.
...

Between the first Bottle I bought, and the more recent purchases, I have noticed no difference in the formulations, all seemed to work-behave the same.

...

So, the question I ask, has any noted any differences with the older Preservative, versus the newer bought bottles? Does the Formula appear to be the same as it was? I was under some odd impression, due to the extreme volatility of this product, that it might've been some type of Freon? Or? Thanks, Mark

I think that the change in the formula came before '97...before that time the vehicle smelled like R-11 (trichloroflouromethane), after the change it was odorless...R-11 is the most active ozone depleting chlorinated flourocarbon, so this really excellent cleaner (I used to buy it in 30 pound jugs to flush out refrigerator sealed systems when replacing a burned out compressor...would always keep a fifteen pound jug around the house for cleaning up electronics...damn, I miss that stuff, and it was cheap, too!!!) but the tree-huggers got so many good things taken off the market in their zeal....

I've got no idea what the vehicle is now, but it works and acts the same, and I guess that's what really counts!
......

 

[orthophonic]

I don't know because I haven't bought any in a few years like you said,it is
extremely volatile and will evaporate right before your eyes
but I am not sure it contains freon.

There was a record preservative in the early 70's put out
by Discwasher (Not soundguard) that did contain freon, but it was recalled within a couple of months because the supposed preservative was actually creating ticks & pops by eating
into the vinyl. I don't recall the name of it, but it came with
padded tray to treat the disc on. I pity the people who bought one of those!

 

[Karma16]

HI,
There have been no changes to the Last formula since it was introduced. I have used Last continuously since its introduction.

Sparky

 

[RickB]

HI,
There have been no changes to the Last formula since it was introduced. I have used Last continuously since its introduction.

Sparky

Then how do you explain the difference in smell from the original that I used back in the '80's and the current version? I did detect the unmistakable scent of the R-11 (or very similar fluorocarbon) that I do not detect today...

I do believe that there was some note about that back when all the ozone depletion compounds were being phased out, it's just that it's been so many years ago....

I think the only thing they changed was the vehicle, the actual stuff that carries their treatment and evaporates, to conform to newer standards for consumer chemicals...and today, you cant even buy R-11 as an electronic cleaner without going thru a bunch of hoops and having a business...that is, if that hasn't been curtailed, haven't bought any in at least 10 years....