New JJ E83CC Frame Grid

Speculation about why a cheap Chinese sourced Music Angel amp is designed the way it is is fruitless.

Other than I beleive it was originally designed to use the Chinese version of the 6N1 tube and never correctly redesigned to use 12AX7 tubes, other than new silk screening on the chassis.

The JJ and vintage 12ax7 tubes working is truly a surprise, the new Sovtek 12ax7lps refuse to work at all.
 
They arrived today, about half-an-hour before I had to go to work. Incredibly, they made the journey in just two business days from Ontario, despite having chosen economy Fed-Ex.

I listened for about 10-15 minutes, and honestly, they sound very much like the ecc83s before them. However, since getting my amps power supply voltages in line with the schematic, it's been more difficult to distinguish subleties between differing front-end tubes. When voltages were sagging here and there, it was easy to hear differences between an RCA lbp, a Tung-Sol reissue, or a JJ, for example. So when someone on the forum broadly states that "all tubes sound the same... there must be something wrong with your amp", I'm starting to give credence to that notion.

So back to the new JJ, it sounds like the frame grid might have further HF frequency extension, but that's just a quick impression.
 
Hi Paul:

The thing is, in the last month, I've changed up a good number of .022uf and .047uf caps in the front end, went from West Cap PIO to AudioCap Theta coupling caps, and have only about 2% of carbon resistors remaining in the whole amp. So I'm not putting a whole lot of faith in my ears right now. For a number of days, I actually had to turn the treble control down 3db from flat because those front end caps were a bit rough out of the block. They've since settled in. As a result, I find the new JJ to sound much like the ecc83s - quiet, balanced presentation from top to bottom. I thought my system sufficiently resolving to hear nuances between tubes, but find little difference between the old and new. Perhaps I will run them back-to-back and compare. As a result of the changes, my favorite, the reissue Tung-Sol, has fallen out of favor for the Sovtek 12AX7lps. That tube used to bore me, but now sounds livelier than ever, and has the lowest and tightest bass of the three. I'll compare the ecc83s and the e83cc within a short time window and report back.
 
Hi Paul:

The thing is, in the last month, I've changed up a good number of .022uf and .047uf caps in the front end, went from West Cap PIO to AudioCap Theta coupling caps, and have only about 2% of carbon resistors remaining in the whole amp. So I'm not putting a whole lot of faith in my ears right now. For a number of days, I actually had to turn the treble control down 3db from flat because those front end caps were a bit rough out of the block. They've since settled in. As a result, I find the new JJ to sound much like the ecc83s - quiet, balanced presentation from top to bottom. I thought my system sufficiently resolving to hear nuances between tubes, but find little difference between the old and new. Perhaps I will run them back-to-back and compare. As a result of the changes, my favorite, the reissue Tung-Sol, has fallen out of favor for the Sovtek 12AX7lps. That tube used to bore me, but now sounds livelier than ever, and has the lowest and tightest bass of the three. I'll compare the ecc83s and the e83cc within a short time window and report back.

It's been some time.
How are they sounding and also anybody else who has experience with these new tubes, please chime in!
 
I was just thinking about this thread a few days ago. I'm satisfied that after replacing all non electrolytic caps, the amp (and the e83CC) have finally 'settled in'. I'm running the new JJ in V3, V4, and V5, which is line-in , bass, and treble controls. I like them more than anything else I've tried now. They are positively the quietest 12AX7 variant I have. The soundstage extends far beyond the physical dimensions of the speakers. There is depth to the sound that makes me giddy. Treble extension is clean and effortless. Quite a contrast to my initial impression, which was that I had wasted my money on a tube that sounded little different from the ecc83s

I've been in a cycle of work-eat-sleep-work, etc, but I will compare the old vs new JJ soon, as I have both Monday and Tuesday off.
 
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When voltages were sagging here and there, it was easy to hear differences between an RCA lbp, a Tung-Sol reissue, or a JJ, for example. So when someone on the forum broadly states that "all tubes sound the same... there must be something wrong with your amp", I'm starting to give credence to that notion.

I've had gear that had a good deal of sonic difference with tube rolling so I won't say there isn't truth in that.
OTOH,
I've had gear that tube rolling made little to no difference in sound. I'm somewhat into the belief that better designed gear , that is gear that runs tubes in their optimal design specs, will work fine with any good tube.
 
I used Fisher branded Telefunken tubes in my 800c I bought short plate jj 12ax7 over the summer for hahas as they couldn't be more different designs. I happy to report both tubes sound the same and i've replaced 4 of the telefunkens with JJs . 2 in phono and 2 for the tone controls. I'll save the Telefunken for the phase inverters which new production has problems with.
 
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Now for the verdict: (drum roll) The e83cc, IMHO, in contrast to the JJ ecc83s, is several orders of magnitude better for fidelity. For a completely subjective, if schmaltzy opinion, there's a bit of magic in that bottle. The e83cc has finesse that the ecc83s simply lacks. Don't get me wrong; the older JJ is quite competent, but the new frame grid has a practically holographic sound stage, in terms of width, depth, and height...delightful really. None of my other current production tubes can touch it. There's more detail, and bass response seems to be about the same or perhaps a bit tighter than the ecc83s. After rolling all of my current production 12AX7 through this morning, I have to correct something I said earlier in this thread - this is not the quietest tube of the bunch. The quietest honors go to the Sovtek LPS. With my ears to the tweeters, I just hear tape and or amp hiss. The older JJ comes in at a close second place for quietness - just a minute amount of noise in addition to hiss. The Tung-Sol is only slightly more noisy than the JJ, but the frame grid is the noisiest of all. With ears to the tweeters, there's a hashy static present. Again, I can not hear it from my listening area. Given the superlative playback, I can live with the noise. I remember being perturbed at having spent nearly $80 for a trio shipped from Canada, for what at the time, I thought was a tube that was littler better than JJs other short plate offering. Today, I think it was a great investment. They are twice the price of the ecc83s, and to me, well worth it.

For noise, my amp might be a worse case scenario: My V4 bass and V5 treble AF amp tube sockets are microphonic. I replaced all of the components on V3 through V5 but actually made the problem a bit worse. Five new QQQ sockets await. But that's another story.
 
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As far as the frame grid being the noisiest, I'm reasonably sure I have one questionable tube among my three e83cc. There is one of them in particular that makes a rushing sound, and even squeals if put in position V4 or V5. It's fine If I put it in the main line-in position, V3. The way I have them positioned now, they are very quiet.
 
Now for the verdict: (drum roll) The e83cc, IMHO, in contrast to the JJ ecc83s, is several orders of magnitude better for fidelity. For a completely subjective, if schmaltzy opinion, there's a bit of magic in that bottle. The e83cc has finesse that the ecc83s simply lacks. Don't get me wrong; the older JJ is quite competent, but the new frame grid has a practically holographic sound stage, in terms of width, depth, and height...delightful really. None of my other current production tubes can touch it. There's more detail, and bass response seems to be about the same or perhaps a bit tighter than the ecc83s. After rolling all of my current production 12AX7 through this morning, I have to correct something I said earlier in this thread - this is not the quietest tube of the bunch. The quietest honors go to the Sovtek LPS. With my ears to the tweeters, I just hear tape and or amp hiss. The older JJ comes in at a close second place for quietness - just a minute amount of noise in addition to hiss. The Tung-Sol is only slightly more noisy than the JJ, but the frame grid is the noisiest of all. With ears to the tweeters, there's a hashy static present. Again, I can not hear it from my listening area. Given the superlative playback, I can live with the noise. I remember being perturbed at having spent nearly $80 for a trio shipped from Canada, for what at the time, I thought was a tube that was littler better than JJs other short plate offering. Today, I think it was a great investment. They are twice the price of the ecc83s, and to me, well worth it.

For noise, my amp might be a worse case scenario: My V4 bass and V5 treble AF amp tube sockets are microphonic. I replaced all of the components on V3 through V5 but actually made the problem a bit worse. Five new QQQ sockets await. But that's another story.

I'm running them in my McIntosh MX110 and MC240 and they are brilliant!
All of what you say is true.
These are replacing Telefunken ribs too.
I am dumbfounded.
Also really happy too.
 
I've been watching this thread to see if anyone compares these to Telefunkens--My Telefunkens are the best 12ax7 I have heard, but are so rare and dear that I only rarely put them in. If these can approximate or even best the performance of the Telefunkens, I would be a very happy guy!
 
If I had a set of rare Teles I’d do that comparison If I had reference gear to make the comparison.... ;)
 
I've been watching this thread to see if anyone compares these to Telefunkens--My Telefunkens are the best 12ax7 I have heard, but are so rare and dear that I only rarely put them in. If these can approximate or even best the performance of the Telefunkens, I would be a very happy guy!
You can test for yourself, an e83cc from eurotubes will cost $22
And yes, we would like to hear the verdict!
 
I guess I will have to. I have too many 12ax7s as it is--always hoping to find a great new one, and being disappointed. This one might be worth the gamble though.
 
Did anyone answer the question in the OP? The new tube is on the right side of the picture. I've tried these things and they are very good. I wouldn't bother putting them in a guitar amp for the sound improvement. On the other hand they seem really good at killing microphonics, so that's a factor. I tried them in my phono pre and they were great. Really low noise and very musical.
 
After reading this thread and a few more, I ordered 1 for the gain stage in my SE EL84 amp. It sounds really nice. I typically roll through Tele smooth grey plates, Bugle boys, and RCA black plate angled D getter, and I really really like the sound of these JJs. Very focused sound without sounding dry or compressed.

I love the RCAs because they have this great, massive, 3d, musical sound. But, they lose some of the focus. The teles are a little too focused, narrow, flat sound stage, but beautifully detailed. The bugle boy is the nice middle of the two. The JJ feels like my RCAs, but with the focus of the tele. Sounds is not quite as large, but the detail is a step up while still sounding very musical. Larger sound than the teles, which I like, and a little more musical. And, I think it does the all-rounder thing better than the Bugle boy. FWIW the JJ is holding its own with my tube collection.

The one test tube was enough to get me to order two more just now for my phono pre to roll in. Not too expensive to play around with and eagerly waiting for em. YMMV but 20 bucks is not much for a tube like this to experiment with :) Interested to hear how other folks found them.
 
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