Clearaudio Concept Turntable vs Old School Dual - Opinion Requested

I

illson20

New Member
Hey!

Looking for some feedback / advice from folks that have experience with any of this gear. I'm considering an upgrade as the old Dual is getting a bit finicky and there's an opportunity in my area to get the Concept for a decent price.

Context:
I'm currently running a Pioneer SX-1080 receiver + some newly refurbished KEF 104.2's and a Dual 621 (automatic direct drive) with a Shure V15 type II and JICO elliptical stylus combo.

To my ears the setup sounds great and I don't necessarily feel the need to make modifications to the receiver + speaker combo (I also experimented w/a dedicated Carver M1.5t magnetic field amp at 375 w/ch in line to see if it made a huge difference for me and I am happy enough running the Pioneer as is).

The Dual has had a few issues w/the headshell that i've already band-aided and I know it's only a matter of time before something else breaks on one of these old automatics (I also do not have the competency or interest in diagnosing turntable issues beyond a very basic level so breakage = shop for me).

Ask:
Is the Clearaudio concept turntable something that would be a noticeable upgrade in this current set up? I'd still need to match it with a new MM cart but I wouldn't be looking to break the bank on that (no more than $250 for the cart + needle combo). Or am I better off sticking with the Dual setup and investing in the repairs as they come up? I'm thinking long-term there is a lot more potential with the Clear audio but I don't need to spend the cash if the sound quality will be comparable from the older gear i've already got!

Any thoughts / opinions appreciated.

Thanks!
 
I have had a Clearaudio Concept for two years now. I had the agent I bought it from put Virtuoso V2 MM cartridge on. This is one of their more expensive ones.
Beautiful turntable. Dead quiet.
I am running it through all tube gear, EAR 834P Phono and EAR 834 amp. Sounds amazing. Go new. No issues.
 
A Dual idler drive, 1009/1019/1218/1219/1229 in proper condition is Dual at their best. But plan on servicing every 5 years of normal home use by a good service technician who knows Duals. ClearAudio Concept is not suited for your Pioneer, a major mismatch. A Dual is like owning any fine piece of German machinery, count on having to get them serviced on time. Want a ClearAudio, upgrade the Pioneer Receiver you have. Separates of higher end would be best with the KEF loudspeakers you own, something like some nice Bryston separates would be superb. A better balanced system.
 
The idea that the Clear Audio is bad for any piece of high fi gear is just nuts. It will out last the Duals with out need of continual service. Its quiet, which Duals are not, the arm is much more sophisticated and with the right cartridge will run circles around any Dual. The Choice of cartridge is what matters in matching your Pioneer, not the CA TT. I prefer HO Dynavectors my self, and they work as well on my Old TD125 with a Rabco arm as they Do On My <Mark Levinson 515B Vpi designed TT. One cost me around $400.00 in the early 70's and the Levinson retailed for $10,000, though I didn't pay that much this year. Its what works for you, it your choice, not someone who thinks your Pioneer is compromised, because it is not if it has been used lovingly. This Like saying because you own a AC Cobra from the 70's it s not worth putting the latest Michelin or Dunlop tires on it. Don't ever let anyone tell you you don't deserve the best you can afford.
 
i20: The arm of the Concept is infamous for its variable tracking force depending on both playback radius and record thickness, so that quite a few phono fans regard it as a maldesign. And the drive is nothing special. So if you'd really like an upgrade over your 621, I'd suggest to rather consider something else.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
lini said:
i20: The arm of the Concept is infamous for its variable tracking force depending on both playback radius and record thickness, so that quite a few phono fans regard it as a maldesign. And the drive is nothing special. So if you'd really like an upgrade over your 621, I'd suggest to rather consider something else.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Click to expand...

After reading your post, I find nothing written about the arm's defects/maldesign. Can you provide the link please?

If you don't like the drive (belt drive), that does not make it "nothing special". What is so special about a motor imbedded in the platter or a high torque motor linked to the platter by an idler wheel system? Engineering has overcome many hurdles, no matter which drive system you prefer. They all work and are all good if well engineered.
 
lini said:
i20: The arm of the Concept is infamous for its variable tracking force depending on both playback radius and record thickness, so that quite a few phono fans regard it as a maldesign. And the drive is nothing special. So if you'd really like an upgrade over your 621, I'd suggest to rather consider something else.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Click to expand...
The Concept arm was designed by Hans and made by Franz.
Hans_and_Franz.0.0.png
 
KentTeffeteller said:
A Dual idler drive, 1009/1019/1218/1219/1229 in proper condition is Dual at their best. But plan on servicing every 5 years of normal home use by a good service technician who knows Duals. ClearAudio Concept is not suited for your Pioneer, a major mismatch. A Dual is like owning any fine piece of German machinery, count on having to get them serviced on time. Want a ClearAudio, upgrade the Pioneer Receiver you have. Separates of higher end would be best with the KEF loudspeakers you own, something like some nice Bryston separates would be superb. A better balanced system.
Click to expand...

Fair enough - a lot of the feedback I was looking for. I mentioned in the thread that i've got some nice Carver separates I could use to run them but i'm balancing a bit of form and function for the room. The Pioneer gear and a more simplified setup work well for the small and mid-century decor of the room (My wife won't let me get away with a giant separates stack). I didn't notice an earth shattering difference having the separate power amp in line with them but this is probably also a function of a sub-optimal room size to really let them breathe at reasonable listening volumes. That said if this current setup is first limited by the receiver before the turntable then probably not much sense in pursuing at the price i'd need to spend (especially considering the new cart pairing).
 
twiiii said:
The idea that the Clear Audio is bad for any piece of high fi gear is just nuts. It will out last the Duals with out need of continual service. Its quiet, which Duals are not, the arm is much more sophisticated and with the right cartridge will run circles around any Dual. The Choice of cartridge is what matters in matching your Pioneer, not the CA TT. I prefer HO Dynavectors my self, and they work as well on my Old TD125 with a Rabco arm as they Do On My <Mark Levinson 515B Vpi designed TT. One cost me around $400.00 in the early 70's and the Levinson retailed for $10,000, though I didn't pay that much this year. Its what works for you, it your choice, not someone who thinks your Pioneer is compromised, because it is not if it has been used lovingly. This Like saying because you own a AC Cobra from the 70's it s not worth putting the latest Michelin or Dunlop tires on it. Don't ever let anyone tell you you don't deserve the best you can afford.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you still think their's some performance upside in this receiver + speaker combo? To your point on cart selection though - what's the most reasonably priced cart you'd consider putting on it that would realistically outperform the Dual + V15 Shure II combo? I know that might be a tough question... Asked another way, would it even be worth pursuing if all I did was put the standard MM concept cartridge on there? Or am I basically back at baseline with the Dual?
 
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All arms have variable tracking pressures when play warped records. If they didn't weigh anything there would still be the mass of cartridge which wants to accelerate toward the center of the earth because of gravity so when the record moves up depeding on the acceleration of the rise the force will increase and when the record start moving back downward the cartridge will still tend to rise until gravity over comes the now reduced acceleration and pulls the cartridge down in which case the weight of the cartridge will collapse the suspension until the acceleration downward force stabilizes when the recording becomes a flat plane again. So the arms pressure changes a bit just like the Empire Arms and the Grado arms from the 60's and 70's. I'll guarantee there are other issues that are more important . You can spend thousands of dollars to buy the right test records and alignment jigs and meters and oscilloscopes to get the cartridge mounted properly at the correct Zenith and azimuth and come real close with the Clear Audio TT, something you could never do with a Dual table. I would pre fer an Ovation or Innovation with a TT5 or a Bergmann Magne, but now were are talking serious money. And remember you are trying to reproduce music from an imperfect compromised analog medium in the first place. So make it the best you can for a compromised medium, the LP. with the monies available and enjoy the sound. I do. I throw away bad warped records. All the world needs is another defective LP. There are lots of them.

Her's a thought find your self a fully restored B&O 4002 or 8000 seriesTT. very short linear low mass arm with a restored MMC cartridge and if there is a warped record out there this will track it. Some of the Revox linear tables are just as good or better if the warm isn't to severe. I have had three SME arms over the years and none of them could compete with the B&O and Revox tables when it comes playing warped records. Even my old Rabco SL-8E tone arm will out perform VPI's latest fat-boy on My Mark Levinson 515B (VPI Prime Signature update). You can always just forget about records just do Hi rez digital streaming. NO noise laden or warped record groves there.
 
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twiii: Well, if you'd want to buy a turntable with an arm, that turns 2.4 g of tracking force at the beginning of an LP into 2.0 g at its end, that's your beer. Personally I wouldn't recommend such a turntable.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
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