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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Hi all :)

One thing I've found that maybe some of you more experienced owners can help me with is do you have general setup rules of thumb for these higher DI type speakers? Being more focused I'm finding that the soundstage is more heavily dominated by speaker placement than conventional speakers.
Hi, Brandon, and welcome to AudioKarma! As you can see, we've been discussing your project and measurement data. :guitar:

After the inherent dynamics and low distortion of compression driver HF, the dominant characteristic of these medium-directivity (60° - 120°) speakers is their horizontal beamwidth; these are 90° nominal at -6 dB. As you can see in your polars, the frequency response is essentially constant within that listening window, but it's not as if they are dropping off a cliff at +/- 45°, as there is still output, albeit diminished, at wider angles. The more you toe them in, the more the direct field dominates the spectral balance, the more defined the soundstage, and the sharper the imaging. Calculate or locate with a mirror where the first and earliest lateral reflection is occuring and look up the response there in your polars. While it is attenuated by the greater distance, it remains a significant contributor to what you hear. Damp that location, and both the spectral and spatial character will change.

Geddes recommends minimizing the first reflection from the near sidewall with extreme (45°) toe-in and a listening position outside the triangle apex. Since you're no longer listening on the forward axis in this alignment, the image rendition zone widens considerably, which may be a bit disconcerting at first, but the lack of a pinpoint sweet spot makes for more enjoyable listening by his view. Key to the retention of spaciousness is that the earliest and strongest first reflection now comes from the OPPOSITE sidewall with low interaural cross-correlation.

Largely independent of the horizontal alignment, you are well familiar with what's happening in the vertical -- the window is narrower where the waveguide is in control, and the nulls augment or punctuate the pattern in the crossover region, in combination, minimizing the floor and ceiling bounce, which are normally the earliest and strongest reflections, and generally acknowledged as undesirable.

Basically, then, you now have control of the directivity above the crossover frequency, and can readily and reliably manipulate the variables via deployment according to your preferences; the room is largely out of the equation. :yes:


I keep getting "file not found 404" errors when clicking the project summary links on the first page. Is that a problem or just on my end? Oddly enough I was able to get to some of them earlier today.
I checked some of the links, and they are all working for me. If there are any particular ones not working, let me know via PM, please.

Welcome to AudioKarma and EconoWave, Don...! :thmbsp:
390320/7440=52.4624​
 
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I keep getting "file not found 404" errors when clicking the project summary links on the first page. Is that a problem or just on my end? Oddly enough I was able to get to some of them earlier today.

AK changed host companies on Weds, I found out because I tried to log in during the changeover and a splash message told me to be patient.
 
Thank you Earl, Wayne, Jack, Zilch, Russell, et. al. for your response to the graphs. Your analysis and input just floors me.
 
- It would help others interpret ( & confirm ) your findings if you published pics with better resolution ( ie ; use a bigger pic size with a maximum, 50 db vertical scale ).
My bad, actually, Earl, as Brandon does post "zoom" versions in his DriverVault with an expanded (3 dB) vertical scale:

http://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/Home

QSC446/DE250 polars in 7.5° increments, 0° - 67.5°:

Horizontal:

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Vertical:

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i thought that was Songs in the Key of Life, rosso. sounds great. i'm gonna be getting into a project very similar with apair of Santana cabs, LE14a's, and an as yet to be determined wave guide. what driver is behind the wg's and where did the QSC's come from?
 
Is there a table that summarizes the crossover tweaks like crossover frequencies? I've found the "standard" design (4, 8, & 16 omh), the >95dB woofer tweak, LE14 tweak, suggestions for higher power, and ???? Obviously the plan is to summarize the summaries that have already been posted and make it easier to collect the less common desigs in one spot.

If not, I can start on a summary spreadsheet that will include component ID (C1, C2, R1, R2), values, part #, cost (?), high pass freq, low pass freq, woofer impedance, approximate power capacity, and a comment section on why it was done. What else to add? Driver/woofer/waveguide if non-standard?

I guess you can put me on the list as an official eWaver. The parts are on order...

Don
 
About a week before Twangfest, I had been swapping out motor run oil capacitors for PIO in my Ewave x-overs. Things were coming around with the original caps but I wanted to try out something different.

Everything seemed a little edgy but figured that a couple days of run in should smooth things out. Having never these in a larger room setting, I was curious to hear them that way even without a sub and brought them down to Jays.

Initial setup only allowed for tight positioning of the speakers with a questionable amplification and source, but even after that was resolved, the result was absolutely abysmal. No LF, with no soundstage and just provided a wall of noise. They were bad to the extent where I actually left the room after listening for only a couple of minutes :D

The EVM 12L in the TL806A cab was just not cutting it for LF/mid and was sounding very PA in its presentation. That driver, although reportedly very nice for front loaded horns was not going to make it in this application.

After I got back and a few days passed, I decided to do what I should have done to begin with. I dug out the JBL 4507 cabs and loaded them with Gauss 4583F 15's.

Ugly but mucho better. Now, were getting somewhere!

RC
 

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i thought that was Songs in the Key of Life, rosso. sounds great. i'm gonna be getting into a project very similar with apair of Santana cabs, LE14a's, and an as yet to be determined wave guide. what driver is behind the wg's and where did the QSC's come from?

Driver is the B&C DE250, bought in group buy back in Jan or Feb this year. Also available now at PE for about $125 ea, IIRC. Waveguides direct from QSC: http://www.qscstore.com/hpr152hfhorn.html but I hear they are currently on back order.

Don't think that a LE14 and the QSC waveguide will fit on a Santana front baffle. It would be very tight and you need some room for the ports too.

Photo of my ewaved Santanas w/ LE14's and JBL waveguides w/Selenium D220ti drivers:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3030235&postcount=7127
 
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Ugly but mucho better. Now, were getting somewhere!
The Band's "Music from Big Pink" would be most apropos. ;)

We figured out how to strip the vinyl off 4507s recently here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250328

A LHF member has morphed them into handsome furniture cabs:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=179985#post179985

Looks like QSC446/DE250 will fit on the baffle, but nobody's worked through potential interference of the internal brace behind yet. :dunno:

I guess you can put me on the list as an official eWaver. The parts are on order....
Project pics are required for "Official" standing so we can all see what you've wrought.... :thmbsp:
 
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The Band's "Music from Big Pink" would be most apropos. ;)

We figured out how to strip the vinyl off 4507s recently here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250328

A LHF member has morphed them into handsome furniture cabs.


I read that. Figured that I would find out if they were going to be to my liking before moving head long into the process. This combination is working out extremely well so I guess I had better get to work ;)

Specialidiot (Jeff) just stopped by to pick up a pair of 45 tubes and had a chance to listen to them as they are right now. He liked the combo also. They are now presenting a very believable soundstage and vocal imaging is pretty darn good.

RC
 
Looking for advice - Mach Ones

Folks, need some advice.

I'm using Realistic Mach One cabs for my econowave conversion and I'd like some opinions on driver location. I'll be using a new baffle boards.

I'm using Dayton DC300s for the woofers. With the Mach One cab I can mount the Waveguide in the original horn location at the top of the cab. This is a sealed box, isolated from the main volume. I can move woofer up to keep the drivers close together.

I can also move the waveguide down and open up the sealed compartment at the top. This arrangement leaves both driver closer to the middle of the cab on the vertical access.

Thoughts on any real advantage to one location over the other.

Thanks
Larry
 
I finally got the time to put the crossovers together and build a quick makeshift housing for the waveguides to get an idea of what they would sound like.

At first the just sounded OK, couldn't put my finger on what the problem was, so I went back and reread some of the pertinent threads linked on the first page and checked the driver polarity. Well now that I have the woofers wired up correctly they sound much better, still working on proper balance however.

Here is a quick shot of them and no I don't really like that scrap wood look, but it was cheap. :D

attachment.php


I am currently biamping them with an Amber model 17 going to Redboy's Dolly II for the Ewave and the second out of the amber going to a Yamaha C-65 and then to a Technics SE-A70 for the Trusonic 150W. This way I can use the C-65 to balance the volume between the Ewave and the Trusonic. I have the L-pads but have not hooked them up.

So far I am liking what I am hearing.
 

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You and I should get together and swap horn baffle boards. At least then, one of us would have a clean looking set-up :D


RC
 
You and I should get together and swap horn baffle boards. At least then, one of us would have a clean looking set-up :D


RC

I'll send you my address. :D I do have a local AK'er who will cringe at the look of those and soon supply me with a proper looking setup. :thmbsp:
 
Argh! I can't take it any longer for my waveguides to come from being back ordered. Does anyone have a QSC horn I can borrow for a bit? I want to build a set out of aluminum.

Any naysayers I say it can be done! Can anyone help me out? If so please PM me.

Denny
 
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