Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Russellc · Oct 27, 2009

Bauhausler said:
My wife works in the tooling business. Her small fixtures company just bought a 3 axis CNC machine. One of their suppliers can do small run injection molding. The setup costs make small runs very expensive on a per unit basis. I've been talking over with them casually just how difficult it is to manufacture waveguides from scratch and what data would be necessary to do it. The easiest material to work with is wood because it cuts fast. Also there are engineering plastics used in fixturing that cut pretty well. Obviously a symmetrical shape is easiest to define and therefore develop.
If there was a need to produce something very specific and different from existing waveguides then it might be worth doing the math, producing data files and having the parts whittled out on a CNC, but it definitely would not be faster or cheaper than presently available units.

Would never be cost effective I wouldn't think. What I'm thinking of is something along the lines of the wood horn that Wayne sells. Not his mid horn, but the optional wood tweeter horn. Maybe something like the mid horns construction, with some way to accurately replicate the throat area
where the driver attaches. Those with better woodworking skills could really build some attractive guides!

Always remember, Consensus is the hobgoblin of small minds.

Russellc

donprice · Oct 27, 2009

Eminence driver selection

Day 19 waiting for JBL waveguides to arrive passes slowly....much like a sleeping armadillo sinking into the roadside pavement on a hot summer day :drool: First pair of x-overs assembled and test boxes (2 ft^3 sealed) rough assembled and waiting for 6 x 12 waveguides to be mated to JBL 2204 12s. Second set of L100 like clone boxes awaiting lobotomy for 6 x 6 waveguide installation only 2 months after assembly...so sad, they never really lived. I have beer older than that :tears:

The mind starts to wander...98 dB @ 1W/1m seems much more appropriate to try to knock the paint off the walls than 89 so the hunt begins for a high efficiency non budget-busting woofer. So I pull up the PE site and start looking at the Eminence 12" driver specs. The "project ideas" section includes suggested box designs and response curves from Eminence. Unfortunately, I can only guess how a particular woofer curve matches up with a standard high-e ewave crossover. For example, the Kappa Pro-12A (#290-424 $130) in a 2ft^3 vented box is +/- 3 dB from 60-900 Hz but rolls off to -9 dB at 2000 Hz. http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-424c.pdf Similarly, the Delta Pro 12A (#290-510 $110) in a 3 ft^3 vented box is very flat 60-1200 Hz and rolls off -6 dB at 2000 Hz. http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-510c.pdf

Is there any rule of thumb on how to modify the eWave crossover to match up with a given woofer dB rating (say - 6 dB) at a given point (1600 Hz?).

Rigging up the mic and a frequency analyzer is a bit of a stretch at this point. But if someone has one I can borrow...

My apologies if this topic was beaten to death 300 pages ago...

skywave-rider · Oct 27, 2009

Russellc said:
Would never be cost effective I wouldn't think. What I'm thinking of is something along the lines of the wood horn that Wayne sells. Not his mid horn, but the optional wood tweeter horn. Maybe something like the mid horns construction, with some way to accurately replicate the throat area
where the driver attaches. Those with better woodworking skills could really build some attractive guides!

Always remember, Consensus is the hobgoblin of small minds.

Russellc

I wish I could make a box! Hahahah.

I love the wood horns some guys DIY. Wayne's is beautiful. I was looking at this guy's DIY mid horn (tractrix) thinking how cool it would be to make a horn or waveguide myself....
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/124727.aspx
A waveguide seems to have more complicated flares, though. Is plastic and a mold required for a waveguide?

Wayne1 · Oct 27, 2009

PioneerGuy75 said:
Has anybody E-Waved Wharefdale W60's??

I have a pair and am considering it. Don't want to ruin the beautiful fronts tho.

Indeed I have.

I also replaced the woofers with refoamed ones from the New Larger Advent.

These speakers are now with my daughter at college. They are being used with a Sansui AU-719 and her Mac Book Pro.

I was able to cut away the masonite from the grille cover and place it back over the cabinet. They look absolutely stock, but sound far from it. VERY dynamic and extended low end. Mids and highs are clear and able to be heard anywhere in the room.

juniorJBL · Oct 27, 2009

Impressions

Ok

After having a diaphragm go bad right off the get go (got new today) and a problem with my le14's (Zilch I had one of each in there) I got to sit and listen :banana:

While not a good environment I wanted to see how they would sound in a not so perfect listening environment.

Equipment: Adcom GFP-750 Yamaha DVD 2300 MKII Niles s45 power amp ( 45 X 2)

These sound very good. Depth and clarity are top notch. Very smooth throughout the spectrum.

Listened to a wide variety of music to hear what might sound the best.

As is with my main system and what I am used to these sound really good and about a 30th of the cost. For what minimal components these have I am really impressed.

At first they sounded a little honky but found I have 2 different LE14H-1's. One is + to the black terminal provides forward cone movement and the other is + to the red terminal.

After that was changed everything just kind of fell into place.

These also are reminiscent of my 250's (which are not operational at this time) mainly because of the le14's (man I love those drivers!!

). They are accurate as well.

I am in the middle of finishing another room for 2 channel listening so it will be fun to hear these in a much deserved listening environment.:yes:

These will be nice to listen to as I build my biased 250ti networks. :music:

Thanks to all who have contributed to this wonderful adventure!!:thmbsp:

Zilch · Oct 27, 2009

PioneerGuy75 said:
Has anybody E-Waved Wharefdale W60's??

I have a pair and am considering it. Don't want to ruin the beautiful fronts tho.

Under "Supplements" in Post #1:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236245

juniorJBL said:
Thanks to all who have contributed to this wonderful adventure!!:thmbsp:

You are very welcome, of course!

I'm glad we got the JBL woofer polarity thing sorted out successfully.

[Izzat 4408 on the bench there? ]

donprice said:
Is there any rule of thumb on how to modify the eWave crossover to match up with a given woofer dB rating (say - 6 dB) at a given point (1600 Hz?)

Not really without in-system measurement capability.

The standard eWave lowpass is 1.2 kHz electrical, as I recall, so it's already rolled down by 1.6 kHz, and 2 kHz is down further yet. For LE14A, it's lower, 900 Hz, because there's a peak in the response in the acoustic crossover region.

It's a simple 2-Pole filter, two components, ammenable to easy tweaking.... :yes:

electrovice · Oct 28, 2009

Question for Zilch

Somewhere in this rather long thread somebody had posted about using the Econowave with a parallel pair of woofers. You had suggested the use of some specific inductor to use with the second woofer to cut it off at 300 hz or so. Could you please post that link again. I have not been able to find it with the search thread feature.

Thanks in advance.

John

skywave-rider · Oct 28, 2009

electrovice said:
Somewhere in this rather long thread somebody had posted about using the Econowave with a parallel pair of woofers. You had suggested the use of some specific inductor to use with the second woofer to cut it off at 300 hz or so. Could you please post that link again. I have not been able to find it with the search thread feature.

Thanks in advance.

John

GordonW's "Little Reds":

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2860467&postcount=6345

Details here:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2860201&postcount=6343

Zilch · Oct 28, 2009

The "0.5" scheme has been discussed several times. Keyword "helper" may find some of these.

The forumla is simple: connect the woofers in parallel, but install an inductor in series with one of them. Choose the inductor according to the woofer impedance and the desired frequency, 200 Hz or below, typical, from the Parts Express 6 dB/octave lowpass filter chart:

http://www.parts-express.com/resources/crossover-component-selection-guide.cfm

Remember that with this approach, the impedance will drop at those low frequencies; a pair of 8-Ohm woofers in parallel = 4 Ohms. However, this is also the region of box resonance, where the impedance may be, and is usually, somewhat higher.

Woofer Tester will reveal the actual impedance of the combination. No, I've never measured one.

Bauhausler · Oct 28, 2009

electrovice said:
Somewhere in this rather long thread ... SNIP... I have not been able to find it with the search thread feature.

Thanks in advance.

John

Gone down the memory hole. AK search is not to be relied upon. Google may sometimes get you where you want to be if you remember enough about what you're looking for.
It's the War and Peace of threads, but with less plot and more sawdust.

Russellc · Oct 28, 2009

Between building Ewave CC crossovers, a tube 45 amp and a DIY Nelson Pass F-5, my fingers are sore!

This F-5 is supposed to be something else, fairly easy build, seemingly econo.

Russellc

Steve O2 · Oct 28, 2009

Thanks for that link Ziltch:thmbsp:

Im kinda clueless when it comes to this stuff but Id like to learn more:nerd:

This is the impedance of my CV CLSC 215 speaker I found in a review on line. It has 2 8 ohm woofers wired parallel crossed over at 280 Hz...

Id like to try the .05 deal on em at 50 Hz for the bottom woofer because that's where the impedance spikes???

On that chart for an 8 ohm woofer the lowest it goes is 16.99 Mh for 75 Hz
which is also the lowest point on the impedance curve at about 4 ohms :sigh:

These are running on a really beefy JBL MPX 1200 pro amp that can do 2 ohms stereo easy but I think Id be better off at 50 Hz???

If so what value choke would I use???

Also will this change the stock crossover point at 280 Hz???

Back on topic;

I have all of my E wave crossover parts and a big pile of Ziltchnutz and zip ties sitting here... I have ambition and a pot of coffee going:yes:

My Pyle wave guides from MCM should be here today

I should have it running today and I'll try to get some measurements with the DEQ 2496 :smoke:

Zilch · Oct 28, 2009

That curve is with the two already in parallel, so use 10 mH, #266-580.

You would have to correct the 280 Hz lowpass, yes, because it'll then be seeing twice the design impedance.... :yes:

Steve O2 · Oct 28, 2009

Thanks next time I order from PE, I'll probably try that just for fun to see what happens:thmbsp:

I got one crossover done and some measurements :banana:

The 1 Mh seems to work fine as is:yes:

This is with the polarity reversed from the design spec, which is reversed...

crosses right at 1.6 Khz:yes:

It sounds pretty good :music:

I just got more waveguides

I tried the Selenium D2500Ti-Nd and it sounds good too:thmbsp:

Without changing anything but drivers it measured the same

Its a different sound, kinda hard to describe. When I get my other crossover done I'll be able to do a quick A/B comparison.

I gotta get more batteries for my camera and a victory beer, I'll try to get some better pics :smoke:

Steve O2 · Oct 28, 2009

That 2nd pic of the RTA is the D2500Ti-Nd with the phase reversed, it crosses over just as nice as the D220Ti

Gotta build another styrofoam crossover:nutz:

juniorJBL · Oct 28, 2009

Zilch said:
[Izzat 4408 on the bench there? ]

Nope

4301b's Freshly re-foamed and ready for the Zilchter's 4301 crossover mods

acmetv · Oct 28, 2009

Hi, I'm new to this forum and it is my first post.
I saw the Econowave during a Google search for a good replacement Tweeter (fried egg) for my Large Advents (Circa 1975 utility cabunets).
So I am now waiting for the Parts Express package to come so I can build my Xovers and install the speakers!
Unfortunately the Pyle waveguides are on B/O til 10/30/09 :tears: At least it is not too long to wait.
My Advents never sounded great to me, Bass was good but highs were dull to my ears and absolutely no imaging in my room.

Thanks to all of you for your recommendations:thmbsp:

I hope I'll be Happy (No turning back as I cut my openings for the Waveguides)!

Zilch · Oct 28, 2009

Not sure we allow havin' this much fun here....

acmetv · Oct 28, 2009

Was that in the Forum rules?

Zilch is the original speaker grill fine to use after I open up the tweeter location? I remember reading in one of the posts that the material on the Large Advents helped the original Fried Egg tweeters to perform better. Will it hinder the Econowave?

Zilch · Oct 28, 2009

It's not the material, rather, the small size of the cutout that "improved" the tweeter response. You had to have the grilles in place on the stock large Advents; it was part of the design.

For eWave, you'll need to enlarge the cutout(s). I'd save the cloth if it's in good shape and just make new grilles, maybe with PE grille frame kits.... :yes:

juniorJBL said:
4301b's Freshly re-foamed and ready for the Zilchter's 4301 crossover mods!

Recap with revised layout and bypass:

Thetas are on B/O right now....

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