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Was just gifted with a Pioneer PL-41!

1

10seventy9

Active Member
My brother bought this, either when he was in Viet Nam or right after he got back (I was born in '65, so I don't remember that far back to know), but it has been sitting unused in his shop for the last 2 years. I took some #0000 steel wool and lemon oil and gently cleaned the walnut and it looks great, I don't think my brother thought it would come out, but it looks really good.

I am getting ready to clean the platter, debating what to clean it with. I know I could use the #0000 steel wool on it, as it has a few areas that are spotted, maybe pitted just a little. Is there anything that would work better on the aluminum than the polish grade steel wool? I will have to be careful not to scratch it up in a different direction than the factory "grain" was brushed into it. What would some of you here use instead of the steel wool on it? It's not going to be sold or anything, as this has been in the family for 40 years or so, and it's going to stay in the family, so looks aren't the most important thing, but by the same token I don't want it to look bad, either.

I am going to have to procure a belt for it, and I need to try to polish a few light scratches out of the dust cover, if possible. Also, it still has the original Pioneer cartridge on it, as well as having an extra stylus. I have a new, never installed Audio Technica Precept 400 as well, but I don't want to put that on until my brother gets me the overhang gauge and the manual for it, which he didn't find before he came to Illinois from South Carolina yesterday. Does anyone have any experience with the original factory cartridge from these tables, are they pretty nice, or would I be better off to swap it out for the Precept once I get the stuff from my brother?
 
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Congrats on the table, for the platter ( or aluminum ) I use Brasso original formula, for dust covers as well, but there are plastic polishes that work better than brasso, and the new formula is not so plastic friendly, so it is not recommended, for the plastic I would try NOVUS polish http://www.novuspolish.com/store.html , Ok back to the platter, if the platter is pitted or corroded some sanding may be required to make it look smooth again, of course by using sandpaper the "factory grain" will be lost, but with care and patience you can get a nice shiny finish, and if you have access to a polishing buffing wheel you're golden. I did that to the platter on my Thorens TD 150 (which was severely pitted) and it came out great.


platter copy.jpg the before, you can clearly see the pits and oxidation
platterafter copy.jpg the after, sanded down with some 1200 grit sandpaper, followed by a hand 'rub down' with Brasso, you can clearly see that some pitting still remains, but it is smoother and shinier, I didn't want to sand any further with fear that I would leave an uneven finish (flat spots), I then proceeded to give it a whirl on with a buffing wheel and the sandpaper 'tracks' are virtually gone.

But before you break out the sandpaper try brasso first.


John
 
Has anyone here ever used one of the stainless thrust plates that the guy on eBay is selling? Mine is shot, however, it has a couple of thin stainless steel washers in the bottom of the spindle well, but they aren't the proper thickness. I'm debating the best way to fix it. My nephew works for a machine shop, he could make the stainless one for me for probably 2 or 3 bucks, something like that is simple for him to make, but I wonder if stainless or delrin, which he may also have, would be a better material?
 
Zodia said:
Congrats on the table, for the platter ( or aluminum ) I use Brasso original formula, for dust covers as well, but there are plastic polishes that work better than brasso, and the new formula is not so plastic friendly, so it is not recommended, for the plastic I would try NOVUS polish http://www.novuspolish.com/store.html , Ok back to the platter, if the platter is pitted or corroded some sanding may be required to make it look smooth again, of course by using sandpaper the "factory grain" will be lost, but with care and patience you can get a nice shiny finish, and if you have access to a polishing buffing wheel you're golden. I did that to the platter on my Thorens TD 150 (which was severely pitted) and it came out great.


View attachment 291569 the before, you can clearly see the pits and oxidation
View attachment 291570 the after, sanded down with some 1200 grit sandpaper, followed by a hand 'rub down' with Brasso, you can clearly see that some pitting still remains, but it is smoother and shinier, I didn't want to sand any further with fear that I would leave an uneven finish (flat spots), I then proceeded to give it a whirl on with a buffing wheel and the sandpaper 'tracks' are virtually gone.

But before you break out the sandpaper try brasso first.


John
Click to expand...


Haha, John, my name is Jon.... LOL. That platter looks really nice. The platter on the PL-41 is mostly sunk where you don't see a lot of it, so I don't know if I am going to bother with polishing it up all that much, other than making sure I get the belt path good and clean. I did try Brasso on the edge of the platter where the belt runs, and it seems to be cleaning it better than anything else I tried, so that's probably what I will end up using. I think this is going to be a pretty nice turntable when I'm done.

Has anyone used the stock cartridge on one of these? The needles for the stock cartridge are pretty inexpensive. I remember listening to this turntable when I was a kid for hours, thinking it was one of the best sounding tables I had ever heard when I was a teenager. I might just pick up a couple extra needles for the stock cartridge and use them for now. I dunno, though, the Precept is calling out to me for me to try it... :scratch2:
 
There are many very informative threads on this site that detail the many many tweaks that will help to bring out the best in this TT. I have one fully tweaked and it is a high performing unit. I love it. Be sure and get a low compliance cartridge to go with the massive, but excellent tonearm. I have a Denon DL 103. I think a Stanton 500 would perform well with it too.
 
Isotonic said:
There are many very informative threads on this site that detail the many many tweaks that will help to bring out the best in this TT. I have one fully tweaked and it is a high performing unit. I love it. Be sure and get a low compliance cartridge to go with the massive, but excellent tonearm. I have a Denon DL 103. I think a Stanton 500 would perform well with it too.
Click to expand...

Did you see my previous two posts, the questions in them? I have a stock cartridge with an extra stylus, I haven't looked them over yet to see if they are ok or not, but do you know anything about the quality of that particular Pioneer cartridge?

Also, since yours is restored/tweaked, what did you use for a thrust plate/bearing, a delrin or nylon disc, or did you happen to try the guy on eBay who makes them out of stainless? I have a nephew who is a machinist, he can make me whichever one I want. I'm thinking the stainless one would likely last a long, long time, but would it be as good performance-wise as a delrin or nylon one, and would it wear the bottom of the spindle down faster than nylon or delrin?
 
10seventy9 said:
Has anyone here ever used one of the stainless thrust plates that the guy on eBay is selling? Mine is shot, however, it has a couple of thin stainless steel washers in the bottom of the spindle well, but they aren't the proper thickness. I'm debating the best way to fix it. My nephew works for a machine shop, he could make the stainless one for me for probably 2 or 3 bucks, something like that is simple for him to make, but I wonder if stainless or delrin, which he may also have, would be a better material?
Click to expand...

Have him cut one from 7/8" Delrin bar stock, cut 0.10" inches thick. It's the right thickness after you remove the steel disks from the spindle well. I use synthetic motor oil in the spindle well.
 
Stainless steel would be fine, just as long it is polished to a mirror finish to avoid damage to the bearing, a good viscous oil is also recommended (although I think Pioneer used grease...not 100% sure), nylon is softer and it will not damage the bearing, and it is tough enough to give you another 20 maybe 30 more years of use out of that TT, so...
Oh, since you nephew is a machinist, have him polish the center bearing (yes I am obsessed with polishing), but if the bearing is not perfectly smooth it will wear out the thrust plate faster.

John
 
OK, I think I'm gonna have Josh make me one from Delrin or Nylon. I was looking at the stainless ones, and in the pictures, they don't look to me like they have the little divot in the center for holding a bit of oil, which makes me think it might wear the bearing on the bottom of the spindle down faster. My spindle is in really good shape, and my brother used this table pretty regularly until he parked it 4 or 5 years ago, I think I'm safe to not have anything done to the bearing. I cleaned it off really well and it's in great shape, although I will ask josh to look at it, as he has a magnifier for when he is making really small parts. He works for a company that makes mostly parts for coal mining machines, but they get asked to fabricate all sorts of stuff sometimes. I am a band instrument repair guy and I had him fabricate me a couple custom key screws a couple years ago for a horn I was repairing that was old enough you couldn't get replacement parts for. Making this disc will be a piece of cake for him.

This brings me back to my question about the cartridge.... does anyone know about the performance of the stock cart? Or should I just put the A/T Precept I have (I was wrong, it's a Precept 550ML, not a 400) on it and be done with it?
 
10seventy9 said:
OK, I think I'm gonna have Josh make me one from Delrin or Nylon. I was looking at the stainless ones, and in the pictures, they don't look to me like they have the little divot in the center for holding a bit of oil, which makes me think it might wear the bearing on the bottom of the spindle down faster. My spindle is in really good shape, and my brother used this table pretty regularly until he parked it 4 or 5 years ago, I think I'm safe to not have anything done to the bearing. I cleaned it off really well and it's in great shape, although I will ask josh to look at it, as he has a magnifier for when he is making really small parts. He works for a company that makes mostly parts for coal mining machines, but they get asked to fabricate all sorts of stuff sometimes. I am a band instrument repair guy and I had him fabricate me a couple custom key screws a couple years ago for a horn I was repairing that was old enough you couldn't get replacement parts for. Making this disc will be a piece of cake for him.

This brings me back to my question about the cartridge.... does anyone know about the performance of the stock cart? Or should I just put the A/T Precept I have (I was wrong, it's a Precept 550ML, not a 400) on it and be done with it?
Click to expand...

A couple of points - the stainless disks in the PL-41 spindle well are not thrust bearings, but spacers that were placed beneath the original plastic thrust bearing (which in most cases are all busted up by now, with the remnants perhaps already removed).

As for cartridge, I don't think the stock cartridge is anything special (it's a conical stylus), but I don't think a Precept 550ML is a good match from a compliance perspective. IMHO, you want a lower compliance cartridge for the relatively high mass tonearm (something like a Denon DL-110 or an AT95E or AT95HE).

Look at this post (as well as this entire thread) for lots of info on the PL-41:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3882280
 
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10seventy9 said:
Has anyone here ever used one of the stainless thrust plates that the guy on eBay is selling? Mine is shot, however, it has a couple of thin stainless steel washers in the bottom of the spindle well, but they aren't the proper thickness. I'm debating the best way to fix it. My nephew works for a machine shop, he could make the stainless one for me for probably 2 or 3 bucks, something like that is simple for him to make, but I wonder if stainless or delrin, which he may also have, would be a better material?
Click to expand...

You want the thrust plate to be sacrificial, in other words softer than the spindle that rests on it so that only the thrust plate wears. That would suggest Delrin to me.

I made one for a Pl-41 once out of a plastic disposable adhesive spreader. It was made out of a tough but flexible plastic and, given it's intended use, probably pretty resistant to solvents (which is perhaps a problem with the original). I cut it with tin snips and used a hand file to smooth the edges and get it to the correct diameter. It worked perfectly.

John
 
10seventy9 said:
Has anyone used the stock cartridge on one of these? The needles for the stock cartridge are pretty inexpensive.
Click to expand...

That's because they're only available in a .7 mil conical. For the one I had I installed a Stanton 680EE cartridge & D680 stylus. It was a very good combination.

John
 
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Hi, I'm new here. Apologies for jumping on to the OP's thread, but I too recently acquired a PL-41 that is in pretty good shape but needs a little work. I've been reading up on this TT on this site and elsewhere over the past few weeks so I'm aware of some of the potential issues, but get the impression that the PL-41 is a keeper.

First, can anyone recommend the best source for a replacement belt? The belt is not loose but isn't tight. I've measured it at ~ 35.75". I've seen statements that this belt should be 35" but also seen 34" replacements listed.

Second, as is typical the plastic disk that sits below the spindle has disintegrated. There is one metal spacer (not two) below it. I'll take the advice to have a few machined locally. The gentleman above quotes .10 inch. I've repeatedly seen .083 inches quoted elsewhere, but figure that was if the two metal disks were in place. Should I have a small dimple machined in the disk, or let the spindle wear one?

Finally, this turntable came with a Shure VT15 Type III cartridge in the original headshell. I accidentally damaged the original stylus and have ordered a replacement from Ed Saunders. It arrived yesterday but I won't be able to try it out until I get a new delrin disk back in place. Is this cartridge a good match for this turntable?

Thanks in advance,

Brad
 
Belt - PRB FRX 35.1, available at several sources. PRB is an American made belt and reportedly better than the cheaper Chinese/Taiwanese replacements. Here's one at Needledoctor: http://www.needledoctor.com/PRB-FRX-35-1-Belt?sc=2&category=176

As for the thrust plate, the plastic measured .083" and the single metal plate measured .017, totalling exactly 0.1". I had a bunch of 0.1" thrust plates made for myself and others and left the bottom metal disk out when I replaced it. It works perfectly.

As for a V15 Type III on this arm, I don't think it's a great match. This arm works best IMHO with a lower compliance cartridge, typically tracking ~2.0 grams. I believe the V15 tracks optimally at ~1.25g, making it a bit too high compliance for a heavier arm like the one on the PL-41.
 
finnbow said:
As for the thrust plate, the plastic measured .083" and the single metal plate measured .017, totalling exactly 0.1". I had a bunch of 0.1" thrust plates made for myself and others and left the bottom metal disk out when I replaced it. It works perfectly.
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Mine had 2 spacers installed. Either it was a mistake during initial assembly or Pioneer used the shims to compensate for variations in the machining of the spindles.

The thickness of the combined thrust plate and shims isn't hugely critical. Tiny variations in the total thickness will result in the platter sitting higher or lower by a few thousands of an inch.

John
 
boreas said:
Mine had 2 spacers installed. Either it was a mistake during initial assembly or Pioneer used the shims to compensate for variations in the machining of the spindles.

The thickness of the combined thrust plate and shims isn't hugely critical. Tiny variations in the total thickness will result in the platter sitting higher or lower by a few thousands of an inch.

John
Click to expand...

Exactly. I played it with the busted up thrust bearing (effectively 0" thick) and replaced it with the new Delrin. Happily, the PL-41 has adjustable VTA, so the thickness really doesn't make a difference at all.
 
finnbow said:
Belt - PRB FRX 35.1, available at several sources. PRB is an American made belt and reportedly better than the cheaper Chinese/Taiwanese replacements. Here's one at Needledoctor: http://www.needledoctor.com/PRB-FRX-35-1-Belt?sc=2&category=176

As for the thrust plate, the plastic measured .083" and the single metal plate measured .017, totalling exactly 0.1". I had a bunch of 0.1" thrust plates made for myself and others and left the bottom metal disk out when I replaced it. It works perfectly.

As for a V15 Type III on this arm, I don't think it's a great match. This arm works best IMHO with a lower compliance cartridge, typically tracking ~2.0 grams. I believe the V15 tracks optimally at ~1.25g, making it a bit too high compliance for a heavier arm like the one on the PL-41.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the belt recommendation!
 
Follow finnbow's advice & you can't go wrong.

And while you're having one thrust plate made, make a bunch - you will easily find takers on AK (like me...and a half dozen other guys I know) for spares.
BTW - no need to machine a dimple in those plates - just a simple slice of Delrin bar stock & you're good.:thmbsp:
 
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