What other TT makes/models do "Dual idler TT lovers" recommend

What other turntable makes/models do *Dual idler turntable lovers* recommend as additional or alternate turntables to own and use? Please explain why you recommend these makes/models:
--because of similarities or contrasts with your beloved Dual?
--because its a step up in some respect?
--because it is close enough for a second system?
--because it can share the same system well?
--because it can share certain cartridges?
--because it is better suited to some kind of music?
--because you want a good reason to spend more money on audio?
--any other reasons important to you?

There was a recent thread questioning the value of idler-drive turntables and another questioning why anyone is devoted to Dual turntables. From the responses to these threads, it is clear that better idler-drives and certain Duals in particular certainly have devotees among AK participants, not only critics. But it seems to me that it could be more informative to consider the same issues in the contexts that might unite more than divide.

So if you are devoted to at least one model Dual idler drive, but also appreciate and own (or want to own) one or more other turntable models, tell about those models and why do you appreciate them and in what way you recommend those non-Duals. The non-Duals you list might or might not be also idlers, as you wish.

I wonder how Dual-idler-disdainers might respond if they discover that persons of the Dual-idler aesthetic also appreciate one of their favorites?

I prefer my idlers like my other turntables, I prefer heavy built turntable motors in separate plinths of my choice with my choice of arms. And they must meet or beat all NAB requirements for FM station use.

I have a "bohhey" Dual 1019 that I use in a system in my bedroom. That's the only idler table I own but I really love it. It's an old classic. I use a Shure V-15 II with it because I wanted to keep it vintage. I listen to all kinds of music on it through a Fisher X-100-C and large Advents. My other Dual is a 701 DD.

KentTeffeteller, you didn't mention any specific turntables, Dual idlers or others.

ssmith3046, you didn't mention any non-Dual you recommend, or relate how you appreciate the other brand in light of your Dual-idler sensibilities.

Weren't the thread label " What other TT makes/models do "Dual idler TT lovers" recommend " and my further explanation and suggestions clear enough?

Was I wrong to think that devotees of Dual idler drive turntables might have some specific turntables of other brands that they also like for various reasons?

illinoisteve said:

Was I wrong to think that devotees of Dual idler drive turntables might have some specific turntables of other brands that they also like for various reasons?

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OK, I really really like my Dual 1019 but I have to say I like my Lenco L75 with Decca International Tonearm even better. Why? All of the good punchy musical qualities of the Dual plus a much lower noise floor and an even more stable and wider/deeper soundstage. Altogether a more refined and musical presentation. Not only better than my Duals ( I also have a 1219) but also better than my Rega P3.

Having said all those nice things about the Lenco L75 turntable I think the Lenco Tonearm is a very frustrating and worthless POS and anyone that gets a Lenco turntable should immediately replace that POS and discover what the Lenco is really capable of doing. In case I haven't made myself clear, ask me how I really feel about the POS Lenco tonearm...

I found a Miracord 10 H at the dump, minus the headshell, and after being given a headshell by a fellow AKer, I find it a very gratifying table to listen to. The arm looks disasterously massy, but seems to work well with moderate compliance cartridges, and the sound is confident to the point of being brassy -- a fine antidote to the delicacy of many belt drive tables.
I like some of the PEs also, but the ones I've heard seem to me to be less swaggering than the 10 H, and I think the large unsupported sections of the record has some responsiblity for this.

I have an AR-XA too and I would highly recommend it. It's an all manual table though and I'm getting old and lazy so that's why I like my Duals. Also had a Technics SL-1600 that I enjoyed. Gave that one to my son.

The higher-end Miracords, like the 50H, are every bit as good, or maybe better than the Dual. They are actually heavier units. Contemporary units with Dual. Idler wheel, heavy 12" turntable, hystersis-Synchronis motor.

ssmith3046 said:

I have an AR-XA too and I would highly recommend it. It's an all manual table though and I'm getting old and lazy so that's why I like my Duals. Also had a Technics SL-1600 that I enjoyed. Gave that one to my son.

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I never use my Dual 1229 as a changer, though I do use the automatic start and very much like having auto-return. So I suppose that could be called semi-automatic, as opposed to strictly manual. The 1229 is the best turntable I have owned, but I also liked the Pioneer PL-518 I had for a few years, though it was only two speed. I didn't really have quite as good of a cartridge for it as I have now, so I might not have heard it at its best.

The best deck I've had was probably the JVC QL-A75. Gorgeous, precision engineered, 1980's style. But, I love the look and build quality of TOTL vintage. The little 1019 is fascinating to watch; like a Swiss watch, a mechanical relic, but oh, so cool. It holds its own even on the massive Kenwood Supreme 600.



When I want to be in full control, the Empire is hard to beat. Built like a tank, classic good looks, American made. I've had several modern "audiophile" decks; they're just too plain, or flat-out ugly, regardless of "sound". I'm just not anal about "sound", and just don't hear the "huge" differences between turntables. Build quality, looks, value, and a wide and well-chosen variety of LP's - that's what matters to me.

I'm starting to get the impression that for a Dual-idler-lover to like another type of turntable it has to have some serious *weight* as well as style.

Phototone said:

The higher-end Miracords, like the 50H, are every bit as good, or maybe better than the Dual. They are actually heavier units. Contemporary units with Dual. Idler wheel, heavy 12" turntable, hystersis-Synchronis motor.

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Agree, I sure like my Elac Miracord.

Nat said:

I found a Miracord 10 H at the dump, minus the headshell, and after being given a headshell by a fellow AKer, I find it a very gratifying table to listen to. The arm looks disasterously massy, but seems to work well with moderate compliance cartridges, and the sound is confident to the point of being brassy -- a fine antidote to the delicacy of many belt drive tables.
I like some of the PEs also, but the ones I've heard seem to me to be less swaggering than the 10 H, and I think the large unsupported sections of the record has some responsiblity for this.

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I have to say that, at least in the case of the PE 2020, there's plenty of "swagger" and would probably more than measure up to the 10 H. :thmbsp: This model was pretty much the peak of Perpetuum Ebner's run of idle-drive turntables (before Dual swallowed up the company and started incorporating some of the PE technology in its own tables).

If you want to see mine:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=386600

Matt

In idlers I prefer,

Rek-O-Kut tables with hysteresis motors
QRK
Russco
Gates/Harris
Garrard 301 and 401
Thorens TD 124 and the TDW-224 changer version (the best changer ever made)
EMT any model
Telefunken professional idler turntables
BE
Heavy Platter Lencos modified
Commonwealth
Byer

In Idler changers, I like the Miracord 770 and older models best
I also like the Perpetuum-Ebner
I like the Garrard SL-95 b and the LAB 80

On Dual idlers, the 1009 and 1019 are my favorites.

illinoisteve said:

I never use my Dual 1229 as a changer, though I do use the automatic start and very much like having auto-return. So I suppose that could be called semi-automatic, as opposed to strictly manual. The 1229 is the best turntable I have owned, but I also liked the Pioneer PL-518 I had for a few years, though it was only two speed. I didn't really have quite as good of a cartridge for it as I have now, so I might not have heard it at its best.

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Semi-auto: manual start, auto lift
Full-auto: automatic start and lift
Changer: automatic start and lift, can play multiple discs.

:thmbsp:

chicks said:

. . . .When I want to be in full control, the Empire is hard to beat. Built like a tank, classic good looks, American made. I've had several modern "audiophile" decks; they're just too plain, or flat-out ugly, regardless of "sound". I'm just not anal about "sound", and just don't hear the "huge" differences between turntables. Build quality, looks, value, and a wide and well-chosen variety of LP's - that's what matters to me.

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chicks,

What model Empire turntable is that?

-

Miracord fans,

Do they have similar or different maintenance requirements compared to Duals?

I have found Miracord changers to be similar to Duals on service intervals, they have no wear parts per se except for idlers.

If I found a Miracord 50 I'd have to snag it, same for Dual 1019/1219. Otherwise I'm not using idlers here at all at the present. Any broadcast type TT would also be interesting, esp with a Gray Research type arm.

illinoisteve said:

chicks,

What model Empire turntable is that?

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It's a model 208 TT, with a 980 arm and walnut base, which makes the package a model 398.

I have a Dual 1229Q in my den for private listening, and a Garrard Lab 80 in my living room. Both idler driven, and both with superb quality in their own respect (although the 1229Q was built 10 yrs. later after the Lab 80). The 1229Q was a much more refined table than the Lab 80 on its mechanical executions ... from the gentle lowering of the tonearm to the record, to the subtle auto switch off at end of play. The Lab 80 on the other hand was not as gentle and subtle on its executions, but it was built like a tank. Semi-automatic on single play mode (MK I model); it is a decent class of 60's technology and style. I like the styling of its afrormosia wooden arm held in precision alignment by an aluminum stabilizer along its entire length. The moderate mass tonearm can track a minimum of 1.0 gram on moderate compliant cartridges (I use 1.5g for my Shure M91ED).
The classic escutcheon of switches on the MK I is Garrard's signature of innovative style. The hystersis/synchronous motor is totally isolated in a module suspended by rubber anti vibration devices (top and bottom). The result is freedom from any vestige of spurious vibrations which might reflect in record reproduction. It has a dynamically balanced armature driving a full 12' dynamically balanced 5 lb. platter that acts as a flywheel and maintains its speed within NAB standards even at line voltage variations from 95 to 135 volts.
Integral cueing is built-in the armrest itself (a Lab 80 style on its own). A beautiful execution as you push on the "Manual" lever as it automatically lifts the arm, then all you do is press the cue lever on the armrest to lower it on the record.
The Lab 80 was the pinnacle of Garrard's automatic transcription turntable built without compromise. No other Garrard models will be ever built on this level of quality onwards.