1974 Cornwall vs KLF vs KG

My name is Cantilope and I am new to AK. Although I have been a lurker for quite a while. I have actually read every post in the Klipsch Korner. I have learned so much about Klipsch I want to contribute in some way to show my appreciation. Plus I have a question…

Last night I picked up a set of 1974 Cornwalls. This has been added to my ever growing Klipsch collection. In 1995 I bought a set of new KG 4.5 which I still have and have replaced the tweeters with ti. These are currently my rear speakers in a HT setup. For my fronts I run a set of KLF-30s that I got new in 1998. These have had the Crites crossovers installed, ti mids and ti tweeter. I am currently running them with the band pass from Crites. I also have a KLF-C7 that I have the ti installed and upgraded the crossover with Crites as well. In my office I run a KG 1.5 and a SW-10 II (all stock). My HT is powered by a Sunfire Theater Grand II pre then through a Sunfire Cinema Grand which I also purchased new in 2001.

I see a lot of questions concerning what’s what and how it sounds to similar speakers. Here is my very humble opinions on what I own and I have A/B’d everything in my system many times.

First off the KG 1.5s are an excellent book shelf speaker. They are in no way as open or airy as the KG 4.5 and have no bass compared to the larger box and woofer of the KG 4.5. I think they are a perfect marriage to the SW-10 II subwoofer and give me a nice sound in my office. I am hoping to find a nice KG 2.5 to add as a center, and make a smallish 5.1 system for playing Diablo. I would recommend these for a smaller bedroom HT or 2 channel set up in an office.

The KG 4.5 is a great speaker. They came with a phenolic diaphragm and have provided me with many years of trouble free sound. I plan to update the crossover with a new Crites one of these days. They certainly deserve the attention, but as I use them for a surround speaker I hardly push them at all. Moving to the ti tweeter made a nice difference and I prefer that sound to the phenolic and it kept all my HT voiced similarly.

Next up is the KLF-30. I love my 30s. I have heard the 30s up against the 10s and 20s, and the 30s always took the cake. I have read some say the 20s punch harder, but I do not agree. I have a friend with 2 pairs of 20s that we Crited and there is no doubt that for what I am after the 30s are the best. The ti tweeter was a definite improvement as was the Crites crossover. I am still on the fence about the ti Mids. And at this point I think that Crites mids are very good and the band pass cost and $160 diaphragms cost might not be worth it. Not sure I would believe all the hype, at least on my set-up with a KFL. The klf-30s are head and shoulders above the KG 4.5. They are way more dynamic, you can hear the air around the instruments and the bass is perfect. I have hundereds and hundereds of hours of spent playing music through these and I have to say that up till now, I had never heard a set up that sounded as good as mine. Especially watching a movie. 15 years ago I would refuse to go see movies because mine HT was better than most theaters. That has changed, but back then…

This brings us to the Cornwalls. My dad has a set of Heresy IIIs that I recommended he buy because they were an easy buy off amazon. He also has a set of stock KLF30 and a C7 5.1 HT at his summer home and he put the Heresy’s in his winter house and I really likes the way they sound. Different than the 30’s. So this peaked my interest in the heritage family. Which has always been beyond my financial abilities and I thought I was happy. I have been combing the local classifieds for about a year trying to find a cheap way to experience the heritage sound in my home. I really wanted a Khorn and one day I will own them. But what I realized was with my room and that I like punchy bass, the Khorn might not be what is really needed. I finally found an OK set of 1974 Cornwalls for $500. They are not mint by any means and the cabinets need a little clean-up but the drivers are all stock and in working condition. So I unplugged the 30s and set in the Cornwall and wow. They sounds great. Amazing. My opinion is that right now they are 95% of what my KLF-30s are. 40 year old crossover and all. The midrange is smoother and less shouty than the upgraded 30 and I like the sound a lot. A lot more than I thought I would. I am pretty sure that with some new caps they will defiantly surpass the 30s. I am really interested in what an aftermarket network could do to them as well. Sometimes I listen to my music very loud, concert level loud at times and these took everything I threw at them. My amp is a power house capable of 1000 watts per channel in stereo, I have no idea how much I feed them, but they went as loud as I was willing to push. The only downside is the bass. I must say the 30s really shine in the bass region. Maybe it’s my 1000 watt SS amp but the Cornwall can’t quite make my pants shake and hit me in the chest like 4 12s.

So in summary, if you are new to Klipsch or thinking about one of the models I have, give the Cornwall a go. The Heritage family really is a step above the KG and KLF series even if they have been updated/upgrade. I can’t believe I just wrote that, but it is true.

Now for my question… as you can see I run a class “d” SS amp. I know that some of you might be rolling your eyes, but it delivers lots of power and I have been very happy with its performance for more than 10 years. It gives me 450 Watts per channel x5 and it’s a great HT amp. In fact I have had raves in my living room and this setup allows me to really turn up the EDM music. Again maybe not your cup of tea, but to each his own. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it I say…

My Sunfire is not as clean as a tube amp, probably not even close, but will stay as my HT amp. As for my Cornwalls I think I want to find a clean 2 channel amp. Maybe tubes, but I am not sure I would be happy with less than 100 watts, but I have no idea. I have recently been looking at the different models of Mcintosh. Hopefully someone who reads this and can see my particular needs might give me a few models to research. I think I like the blue lit glass ones as far as aesthetics. But I have also read that you can get more amp for less if it’s not a Mcintosh. But at the end of the day, if Mcintosh is the end all, and the perfect Heritage mate, then I want one and if it takes 5 years to find one that’s what it takes. Integrated, separates, monoblocks, tubes, it’s a little overwhelming. My plan is to pick up an Oppo BDP-105D and use that as a pre-amp, but I need an amp that will take my ripped SACD collection to the next level and I would love something that can make both my 30s and my Cornwalls sing with some class.

Thanks and sorry for the extra-long post. Cantilope.

Well Cantilope, that is one heck of a first post! First off, welcome to AK & the Klipsch sub-forum in particular. (there are more lunatics located over at the Klipsch forums as well.)
I find my Cornwall II's to be extremely efficeint & have enjoyed running them off my Rotel amp. Plenty of power at a conservatively rated 85 watts. I find Rotel & Klipsch to be a good pairing. I have a pair of Chorus II's paired with an old McIntosh SS power amp & I must say there is something to be said for that matchup.
How do you like the class D amps? I was thinking about grabbing a Rotel Class D, but have decided to do a restoration of an old power amp instead. Stick around for the free info & contribute when you can, it is a good place to spend some time.

Welcome

get some dynamat and damp your KLF mid horns they are very thin walled and they do flex. You can also install a set of 40 mm ping pong balls into the throat of the horn. I place them so that there is a cm gap (horizontal) on either side of the ball. This combination will impress you. See what you think. Best regards Moray James.

I appreciate the comments. I am very interested in the dampening for the woofer cage. Thanks.

As for the Class "D" it has worked flawlessly for over 10 years without a single hiccup. It stays very cool to the touch and it provides lots of power. When I first set up this system the KLF-30s were the weak link in my system. The Sunfire sound quality was in my opinion above the speakers. As I have made upgrades and changes to the x-overs and better drivers in my speakers, the shift has been apparent and now I believe that the Amp is now my weak link. That is why I am looking for something new. I want to see how a lower distortion amp might sound. But, I don't have anything bad to say about the Sunfire, it powers my 5.1 and beats every integrated amp that I have heard with the Klipsch. I also have a Rotel 1075 and I think the Sunfire is better than the Rotel as well. The Sunfire also have a Current Source and Voltage Source taps. I bi-wire and run the mids and highs using the Current source and the woofers get the Voltage. My klf-30s really punch hard, and I believe this is due to the headroom and the extra power that is there due to the class "d". I listened to "Skrillex - Ease my mind" last night and those (4) 12"s just pound out the good clean bass like no other. I have a very large room with 20' vaulted ceilings and they slam your chest like your being punched. I am sure I have compromised bass for mid and high clarity. I am just wondering if I can have the slamming bass and a bit cleaner mid and highs. If I had to make a suggestion for a HT 5.1 amp, the Sunfire is a winner.

dynamat is excellent for damping your cone driver baskets. The distortion in your loudspeakers is so much greater than even the worst amp you could used. clean up your speakers first then look to source then amplification. hope this is of help. best regards moray james.

Moray, does the dynamat need to cover most of the horn, or is a wrap in the mid section enough? Also, how do you secure the ping pong balls in place?

dynamat

TA Dave said:

Moray, does the dynamat need to cover most of the horn, or is a wrap in the mid section enough? Also, how do you secure the ping pong balls in place?

Click to expand...

I would think that a minimum of 1/3 surface coverage would get the job done but it does not cost that much and so I cover mine 100%. The KLF20/30 mid horn (same unit in each) is thin walled and so is the CF3/4 horn which is even larger so more problematic with respect to flexing. As a result of the thin walls I brace my by bonding on hardwood struts then apply dynamat to the remainder of the horn surface. If you had the horns up on top of the cabinet and not subject to the woofers you would not need any braces on the horns.

As to suspending the balls in place some thread and a little tape is the fastest way to have a listen. I have also made small struts to hard position the balls into place and from a performance point of view I neither see nor hear any advantage to the struts and the struts are much more work. On the K79 tweeter I use a non official ping pong ball which are 38mm in dia.. I install them by cutting a 1/4" wide strip of regular electrical tape and wrapping the ball once then I wedge the ball into the throat of the tweeter horn the friction of the tape holds the ball snugly in place. While this ball looks huge iside of a K79 horn lens it works amazingly well top end is actually improved since the ball blocks some mouth to throat reflections.

I also use dynamat and S.A.E. rated F-11 Acoustical Felt to damp inside of the woofer and the compression drivers on the pole piece on the diaphragm butterfly and on the back plate of the magnet and even dynamat in small strips on the witches hat of the mid driver to linearize air flow into the horn. These are all small but very noticeable improvements which are cumulative in nature. The net result is dramatic and it's one of those kinds of improvements which you simply cannot achieve in any other way and once you hear the difference you are not turning back. I would not listen to stock drivers nor stock horns. These are all distortions that you never knew that you had until they are removed. A ti loaded K79 with damping is a fine tweeter and can be compared to units very many times its cost. The same holds true of the klipsch Mid with a ti diaphragm. I hope this is of interest. I know that these types of modifications are seemingly to most folks too difficult but they are very straight forward. Most would rather spent 2 - 5K on new amplifiers and that's fine but that will never make your speakers do what these simple modifications will and you will at some point end up against the speakers basic short comings and then spend more money on new speakers with most of the very same issues at which point you will have gone full circle to start again. Best regards Moray James.

PS: try some ultra simple Karlson K-Tubes on your compression drivers all you need is to roll up some writing paler or lined paler from a pad add a little tape draw on the curves trim with scissors and use a little twist tie wire to form a keeper hoop to keep it all round. When you cut out the tapers ther is so little paper left the tube does not want to be round anymore and the wire hoop holds the shape for you. These sound so good to me I have no more need for horns. In near field listening situations the K-Tube is excellent and betters any of the large horns that I have listened to so far. A good driver is also a good investment. A set of EV DH1A drivers are a fine starting reference. Please let me know if you eve find a better wide range driver than the DH1A. Please not that my K-Tube profile preference is for a double cutaway tube which looks rather like a bishops hat. I run my tubes pointing directly at my shoulders at my seated ear level with the cutouts in the vertical position. I also align the DH1A voice coil with the woofer. See picture of single and double cutaway versions. I cannot make the system attach the picture here but here is a link where you can have a look.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=586627&page=2

karlson K-Tubes :scratch2: I remember some karlson speakers that had a cutout panel in front of woofer and horns. I had to Google it and looked at a pic of some DIY in PVC pipe. Good info. :thmbsp:

Moray, I very much appreciate the advice. I have damped my horns on the KLFs and KG a few years ago with some clay that I found at a hobby store used in flower arrangements. It is still stuck on there and made the horns a lot more solid per my knuckle test.

I would love to figure out the felt, pole piece and witches hat, unfortunately I am a little ignorant on what these items are, let alone how to not screw them up. I know you have explained these things a little more clearly on other posts and I'll try and figure it out. I just wish I could have you over for a few beers and a tweekers evening...

As for an update on my Cornwall's... I got some capacitors in the mail over the weekend and replaced the (2) in each crossover. I also rewired the speakers using some short pieces of Kimber Kable 4TC I had laying around. I am having a friend put together some 2" risers for me as well, those should be done this weekend. I listened to some Clutch, and Cream last night. They sound a lot better, a bit edgier and the bass is not as muddy. These really are some great sounding speakers. Very alive and open and I like the midrange a lot. With the updated capacitors I was hoping the bass from the Cornwall would meet or exceed what my KLFs can do, but they do not. The KLF 30 has some wonderful punchy solid bass and the Cornwall falls just a little short. I think both speakers have there strengths. FWIW, I will never get rid of my KLFs nor my Cornwalls.

Thank for the offer for a few beer too bad you were not closer. If you ever make it to Calgary you can come over I can show you what to do with your comp drivers. You should keep your eyes open for a set of Chorus ll I think that you would really like them a lot. I would like to hear a Chorus ll with a CW network as I believe the real magic of a CW is the lower crossover point to the mid horn and the Chorus ll mid horn is a much better horn than the CW K600. You could also re damp your CW and you could re tune them a little lower about 4-5 Hz lower but that would be a bit of a wood working project. someone with a box tuning program could tell you how much longer to make the vent. I would imagine a little extension toward the back then an upward flange so you use the rear baffle as the back side of the vent. turning the vent through 90 degrees then pointing upward. Lots of options. Best regards Moray James.

Interesting...

Did a A/B test with the wife last night and she prefers the KLF-30 over the Cornwall, but I like the Cornwall over the KLF. Highs are more pronounced on the KLF and the sound stage is set further back more behind the KLF. Cornwalls soundstage is larger left and right and more in front. Deep Bass on the KLF still trumps the CW but the midrange bass on the CW I think is better. Definitely different sounds. I am going to have everyone willing go through this with me and see what they think. You now regular people, who can't here the difference between an MP3 and lossless... and think I am crazy for buying 40 year old speakers when Best Buy carries all that new stuff.

Last night we listed to U2, The Crystal Method, Tracy Chapman and The Prodigy - Music for the Jilted Generation. I really dig on "The Narcotic Suite", give those a listen if you have never heard it. Start with "3 Kilos".

I cannot remember if you said if your KLF30 had ti tweeter diaphragms or not? Ti diaphragms in the K79 tweeters and the Mid horns make a world of difference. The 40 mm ball in the mids is also a big improvement as is the 38mm ball in the H79 horn lens. I stick some F-11 acoustical felt on the throat side of the diffraction balls that I use but it is not necessary to do that for a simple test to see what you think of the effect they have on your horns. Best regards Moray James.

Moray, do you have any pictures of your mids and tweeters with the balls installed?

I've been playing with the 40mm ball in the mids on my KLF 30's, but not quite sure I have it right. Even with the electrical tape it doesn't fit well. I guess I'm more of a visual person.

I did move the Crites tweeters over from my KLF 10's, nice improvement. Next up the dynamat and Crites mids.

TADave: I only use electrical tape to install the 38mm balls into the K79 tweeter lens and the K700/701 would also mount the same with a CW K600.601. In the mid diaphragm of your KLF 30 and the CF3/4 I hang the ball (40mm) in the horn so that there is a 1cm ga[ on either side of the ball. Some thread and a little tape and it installs easily. The same install would be used in your KLF 10 horn. sorry I do not have a working camera. Hope that helps you. Feel free to post a picture yourself and I can check the position for you. Best regards Moray James.