Speakers 1/3 into room...very nice

I usually locate speakers around four to five feet from the front wall (depending on the design) and sit anywhere from ten to twelve feet away in my 16x20 room. Most of the speakers I listen to are rather large but occasionally I'll pull out a modest tower or book shelf design. Now, for my big speakers (Altec 19, Infinity QLS-1, Acoustat Spectra 22, JBL L250) I get the most from them in my room when sitting at least ten feet or more away, so they're pretty much limited to that four to five feet spacing from the front wall. But recently I've been doing a lot listening to some of my smaller designs and started experimenting with listening position and speaker placement beyond the typical locations. Using a set of ADS 1290/2's I tried something I've never tried before...speakers 1/3 into room. In my room this puts them about seven feet from the front wall and I settled on a listening position about eight feet from the speakers with about eight feet between the speakers center to center.

With this I get what seems to be zero boundary layer interaction as I can hear an improvement in tonality and balance even though I have a well treated room with a pair of absorption panels on both side walls (which pretty much removes all reflections from that location) and three absorption panels on the rear wall (which removes all reflections from that location) and a pair on the ceiling. What I'm hearing is the sort of sound stage presentation I'm accustomed to hearing from my Acoustats...very wide, very deep (uncanny depth, actually), very well resolved, strong image resolution, nearly as much scale (so approaching life like) and a wonderful ability to recreate the ambiance of the space in which the recording was made or convey whatever sort of spatial effect the engineer put on the recording. In addition, the tonality of instruments and vocals seems more complete and natural. In essence, it seems to allow a very natural and unhindered representation of the true sonic character and capabilities of the speaker.

The 1290's are no doubt sounding better than I've ever heard them sound and I'm anxious to try this with all my other moderate to small speakers. It's certainly not a practical arrangement for most, but if you've never tried it and you find yourself with the run of the place and some time and desire to experiment doing this might show you a side to your speakers you've never heard before. :scratch2:

Now, I think it's important to note that reasonable distance relationships will need to be maintained...for instance, if doing this means you're up against the rear wall and your tower/floor standing speakers are five or six feet away from the listening position then I doubt very seriously you'll hear something better. Different, for sure, but likely not better. So keep expectations within reason.

I think most people find the same; it's a question of feasibility as most don't have dedicated listening spaces. Which speakers are those? Looks like an impressive setup.

Those are the ADS 1290/2's....and thank you.

And yes, I realize the impracticality of the arrangement for most. I've seen pictures of listening spaces with the speakers set up way out into the room and often wondered if it made much difference. Now I know :yes:, it certainly does.

My favorite position in the living room is a tad more than a 1/3 off the front wall of a 30x15 space.
The RSIIs reside there and one of these days I'll strap the QLS-1s to my back and bring them up to the magic living room from my listening space.

I'd dearly love to hear my QLS-1's in a 30' long listening space.

In spite of you thoughtful treatments, it sounds like you've further reduced some early reflections, at least as far as the front wall is concerned. This could certainly contribute to the improvements you described.

It would be interesting to see how closely this could be implemented with dipoles. I'm back on the ship for four months, but when I get home........

Can it be smaller speakers work better in your room? I'm wondering that about mine as I am running smaller monitor units after a few large models and dipoles. My normal positioning is about 5ft from back wall in a 13x24 space.
BTW, m6 dad owned those ADS models brand new in the 80's and they are very much a part of my evolution in music appreciation...... Love them.

I have my SP-5000 on either side of my swivel chair like sonic book ends...or heavy duty wooden ear phones...

Never understood the Sticking one's speakers Wayyy out into the room.
1) wife won't tolerate that level of intrusion/Idiocy
(I agree with her on that at least )
2) any speaker that Depends on that 'spacing' is of substandard design imo.
LOTS of Decent speakers work 'jes fine' when placed within close proximity to walls.

Where/how can a get a diffuser like that?

bare said:

Never understood the Sticking one's speakers Wayyy out into the room.
1) wife won't tolerate that level of intrusion/Idiocy
(I agree with her on that at least )
2) any speaker that Depends on that 'spacing' is of substandard design imo.
LOTS of Decent speakers work 'jes fine' when placed within close proximity to walls.

Click to expand...

Speakers should be out into the room to avoid boundary effects. If for mid and high frequency you can use absorbers on the wall right behind speakers to reduce that effect, nothing really can be done for bass. Unfortunately if one does not have a dedicated media room, he is compromising on sound quality.

Rob41 said:

In spite of you thoughtful treatments, it sounds like you've further reduced some early reflections, at least as far as the front wall is concerned. This could certainly contribute to the improvements you described.

It would be interesting to see how closely this could be implemented with dipoles. I'm back on the ship for four months, but when I get home........

Click to expand...

The diffuser on the front wall is pretty much eliminating any chance of early reflections from that particular location as its primary function is to generate late reflections and strong sonic activity in the reverberant sound field...so a greater sense of space and ambiance is perceived.

The way my room is shaped has the front half of the room 16' wide and the back half or the room a little more than 30' wide. I'm thinking that by moving the speakers further forward (closer to the 30' wide back half of the room) I'm removing some side wall interaction (from the 16' wide front half of the room) that was producing reflections that are less strong than the early reflections (which the absorption panels are taking care of), but strong enough to have an adverse effect on the perception of all spatial cues in the recording. So for my big speakers that have to be located closer to the front wall (which buries them in the 16' wide front half of the room) I probably need to add diffusion to the side walls and ceiling.

And my floor is concrete with (not very thick) rugs. That probably isn't helping and I should address that sooner than later.

As far as dipoles way out into the room....the only bad thing I've EVER heard about that arrangement is wives hate it and the audio enthusiast gets really shitty when he has to listen to them in a more "reasonable" location after having heard how absolutely magnificent they sound in the "less reasonable" location.

Be careful and hurry back, Rob.

13x24mancave said:

Can it be smaller speakers work better in your room? I'm wondering that about mine as I am running smaller monitor units after a few large models and dipoles. My normal positioning is about 5ft from back wall in a 13x24 space.
BTW, m6 dad owned those ADS models brand new in the 80's and they are very much a part of my evolution in music appreciation...... Love them.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by "smaller"?

bare said:

Never understood the Sticking one's speakers Wayyy out into the room.
1) wife won't tolerate that level of intrusion/Idiocy
(I agree with her on that at least )
2) any speaker that Depends on that 'spacing' is of substandard design imo.
LOTS of Decent speakers work 'jes fine' when placed within close proximity to walls.

Click to expand...

Oh bare. As much as you humor me there are some nights I just don't even feel like bothering. Tonight is one of those nights. And p1 gave you the gist of it, anyway.

Jerryfan said:

Where/how can a get a diffuser like that?

Click to expand...

Build it!

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=547132

I've played around with this a bit and found favorable results. Unfortunately for me only practical for experimentation at present.

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_rectangular_room.php

Yep. 'Rule of thirds'ish. Does make for inconvenient placement but I'm 'home alone' so I do what I want.

tomlinmgt said:

What do you mean by "smaller"?

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Bigger speakers with larger and/or multiple drivers vs smaller drivers. So I suppose a way it was explained to me made most sense, a larger driver or multiple drivers pressurize a room in ways smaller drivers do not, if a room is filled with a speaker too big for it the bass mids and highs can be clouded by the sound waves. Smaller speakers breath better. I'm still learning about smaller speakers in my room but so far I like it......in 6 months I may be in a total different mindset, but that's what keeps a hobby fun.

bare said:

Never understood the Sticking one's speakers Wayyy out into the room.
1) wife won't tolerate that level of intrusion/Idiocy
(I agree with her on that at least )
2) any speaker that Depends on that 'spacing' is of substandard design imo.
LOTS of Decent speakers work 'jes fine' when placed within close proximity to walls.

Click to expand...

Well you stick around long enough you see it all lol.
Some of us are seeking better then "jes fine" and if you placed most ANY speaker out in your room you may see the error in this thinking.
I know of no speaker manufacturer who would ever share your statement about substandard design, but you already shocked me once so if you can find 3 that share your view you will shock me again.
You used the word idiocy in your description of how at least 95% or more of serious audio hobbyist's know and understand how rooms, their boundaries and acoustics can be optimized but in the process I suspect your opinions are way more likely to be considered idiocy... but hey you went there first lol.
Look, I get many can't dedicate a room for solely audio or many can't use any given room the way they want for a myriad of reasons but circumstances like this can't be morphed into a flawed attitude not generally supported as being based in reality.
We should all enjoy this hobby as best as we can or want but we can't dismiss certain facts.

13x24mancave said:

Bigger speakers with larger and/or multiple drivers vs smaller drivers. So I suppose a way it was explained to me made most sense, a larger driver or multiple drivers pressurize a room in ways smaller drivers do not, if a room is filled with a speaker too big for it the bass mids and highs can be clouded by the sound waves. Smaller speakers breath better. I'm still learning about smaller speakers in my room but so far I like it......in 6 months I may be in a total different mindset, but that's what keeps a hobby fun.

Click to expand...

If you happen to be following my thread about my LS50 acquisition you'll see that I've asked fellow LS50 owners to share their listening space dimensions. The reason for this is I've all but concluded my room is too large for these speakers....and it's not just the LS50 as I feel the same way about any small-ish book shelf speaker I've had in my listening space. It's not that I find their ability to load the room with VLF energy (up so say 80Hz) lacking as that wouldn't be a reasonable expectation (I supplement with multiple subs, anyway), but when tasked with filling the room with mid and upper bass energy (80-250Hz) the small drivers just don't see to do it with the sense of ease I hear when drivers 8" in diameter and larger cover that region. Of course, playback volume plays a major role here and there is a definite balancing act that has to be conducted between size of speaker, size of room, playback volume, and distance between speakers and listening position.

Big speakers in a small room and with a listening position that is near field or almost near field will be restricted to lower output levels otherwise they over pressurize the room with sonic energy and/or driver integration/coherence issues become more pronounced. And listening to big speakers in a near field arrangement simply doesn't offer the sense of scale, dimensionality and sonic space one would experience from the same speakers if the listening position is something beyond near field.

Small speakers in a big room and with a listening position that is not near field seem to lose a good bit of their ability to offer dimensionality to the reproduction (namely depth) and struggle to maintain composure as playback volume is increased to something beyond moderate, in turn losing any ability to convey authority and realism to the reproduction. Relocate the listening position to something that is more of a near field arrangement and dimensionality returns along with composure since the ability to achieve higher listening levels can now be reached at lower output levels, but this arrangement can't offer the sense of space and scale of reproduction that is afforded the listener with larger speakers and a listening position that is beyond near field.

Now, it's important to mention here that my observations are based on what I've experienced in my acoustically treated listening space and in a friend's listening space where big speakers in a small space (near field) are the norm (think Klipschorns and Maggie MG-IIIa's six to seven feet from listening position). A room with a big mess of early reflections will totally change the dynamics of speaker to room interaction and what the listener perceives, so I wouldn't expect my observations to necessarily apply to that situation.

So now that I've gone from something as small as the LS50 to something as large as the Infinity QLS-1 (and just about all points in between) I think I'm getting closer to being able to identify that sweet spot...but certainly not there just yet. I will say this...larger/multiple drivers and their ability to reproduce complex and demanding sonic episodes with a sense of ease and effortlessness along with realistic scale has a great deal of appeal to me and that's the path I'm inclined to follow. The trick now is figuring out which of those types of designs does those things while still offering the detail, resolution, coherence and dimensionality of a very good book shelf design when listened to in a near field arrangement.