12 inch tonearms - educate me?

T

Taketheflame

Super Member
Hey all,

So I've been trying to learn as much as I can here about some of the more ambitious setups that some folks here have - I learned a lot from a previous thread of mine asking about broadcast/professional tier decks.

One thing I couldn't help but notice.. many of these particular decks (whether an idler deck like Garrard 301/401, or flagship DDs like the Technics SP-10) are often equipped with 12 inch tonearms.

I've read about some of the obvious benefits (less tracking error than a 9" or 10" arm), but also some of the drawbacks (a custom plinth that can accommodate such arms is typically a prerequisite, and more mass may be a drawback for some carts).

I guess I'm just curious if those with longer tonearm setups feel that they are worth the extra hassle (and cost) over a good ol' 9" arm? And I'm also curious which 12" tonearm models are well regarded? I'm aware that SME made the 3012 & 3012R, but it also seems a lot of Japanese brands made 12" arms as well, as they may have actually been more popular there? (And which ones are well regarded?) Do they still play nice with MM/MI carts, or are they generally better suited to MC with the extra mass?
 
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There's always opinions oneway or the other heck its audio were discussing, over the years generally
there's been consensus that 10"-10 1/2" length arms are the sweet spot for a variety of reasons.

Naturally there are situations where plinth size, arm effective mass or xxxxx may influence a decision.

When putting together a multi arm plinth I wouldn't skip ^ length as an option.
 
Investigation and research are intelligent first steps. I certainly dont regret choosing a 12" arm.

Another flagship DD is Denon DP80, although others you mention are excellent choices and would also make a solid foundation. My goal also was to put together my end game table while trying not to end up going broke along the way. Nice thing about Denon is they offered multiple factory plinths capable of accepting up to a 12" arm, and even dual arms (DK2300) if so inclined. No need for custom plinth. For arm I went with a 12" Reed 3P. Tri-Planar was also on my short list. Everything was 2nd hand, providing considerable savings, W/exception of MC cartridge. The SQ always impresses, really wonderful.

You can always maintain a second TT for MM, my preferred approach.

Here is comparison size Denon vs a Dual, if you do go this direction reserve adequate space!
denon&dual.JPG
 
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Legrace - What all did you feel you gained going up to a 12" arm?

Yes, this is purely a research thread for possible long-term TT plans. At the moment, I have 4 decks, but 2 will be sold in the coming months. The keepers are a TD-160 Super and a Pioneer PL-570. So I will already have other decks w/9" arms.

That's why I'm thinking any third deck that might end up in my stable later on needs to be something special, and also something that will stand out from the other 2 - hence why I'm considering something originally aimed for professional use with a big plinth and support for 12" arms.
 
If I understand correctly, one advantage of the 12" arm is less error across the record. The longer length provides for less change in angle through its path. I have no direct experience with 12" tonearms, this is just what I've ben led to believe.
The additional mass that comes with a longer tonearm may or may not be an additional advantage, that being another factor in choosing an appropriate cart for said arm.
 
Have multiple tables with 10 to 12.5” arms, and the very best long arms allow one to adjust the effective mass with split and/or additional counter weights. Suggest you take a look at arms offered by Afred Bokrand and read some of his comments.

Wood EMT Banana clone 12” estimated effective mass (EM) by builder, 20-24g

DDBB4C20-D788-4FF9-82C4-82C6F5683517.jpeg

Pickering 190D have several of these, people see them and assume huge effective mass numbers but actually the only articulated portion of the arm is the level that the cartridge mounts to, so the EM can’t be very high

E6FEADB6-B61F-49EA-AE56-3055B729AF9E.jpeg

The Karmadon Gray clone about 11+” probably high EM numbers but actually works well with a variety of cartridges like the Shure V15III, Korf’s blog talks about this very combo working extremely well with the original Gray arm, which is considerably higher in EM than this clone…


830151FF-7B8F-456A-9BDD-1D1AE0A5097F.jpeg

Stax UA70 made by Micro-Seiki, just over 12.5” and 15-18g EM with a light headshell and no additional counter weight but it’s adjustable, and can easily go into the mid 20s in EM


7C071F01-9246-4518-B5B5-FFC2901859CB.jpeg


Have more ,but that’s probably enough (-;

VR
Andy
 
12 inch arms have an average lower distortion capability due to less tracking angle error. But because of the increased mass and resonant characteristics they have more trouble handling warped records and extreme recording levels. You are better off with medium compliance cartridges for the long arms. As the cartridges are much improved today with medium compliance you really don't need high compliance carts anymore. I prefer liner arms myself. You don't have to deal with anti skating that way.
 
twiiii said:
12 inch arms have an average lower distortion capability due to less tracking angle error. But because of the increased mass and resonant characteristics they have more trouble handling warped records and extreme recording levels. You are better off with medium compliance cartridges for the long arms. As the cartridges are much improved today with medium compliance you really don't need high compliance carts anymore. I prefer liner arms myself. You don't have to deal with anti skating that way.
Click to expand...
Yea, what he said.
 
Legrace said:
Another flagship DD is Denon DP80, although others you mention are excellent choices and would also make a solid foundation. My goal also was to put together my end game table while trying not to end up going broke along the way. Nice thing about Denon is they offered multiple factory plinths capable of accepting up to a 12" arm, and even dual arms (DK2300) if so inclined. No need for custom plinth. For arm I went with a 12" Reed 3P. Tri-Planar was also on my short list. Everything was 2nd hand, providing considerable savings, W/exception of MC cartridge. The SQ always impresses, really wonderful.
Click to expand...

I'm a fan of the Victor (JVC) flying saucer machines myself. Victor offered 3 different plinth options, all constrained layer but with one, two or even three armboards. These plinths would take the TT61, TT71, TT81, TT801 and the TT101 motor assembly's. They will handle a 12" or longer arm with no issue as well. The tonearms that were offered on these tables were very good. The UA-7045 (10") and the UA-7082 (12") arms can be found on the auction sites. Yahoo Buyee is my go to site for that sort of thing.
So this is the same thing as putting a Denon table together, gathering up the good stuff and building what you want. With armboards, you just need additional ones to mount different arms.

BillWojo
 
Taketheflame said:
Legrace - What all did you feel you gained going up to a 12" arm?

Yes, this is purely a research thread for possible long-term TT plans. At the moment, I have 4 decks, but 2 will be sold in the coming months. The keepers are a TD-160 Super and a Pioneer PL-570. So I will already have other decks w/9" arms.

That's why I'm thinking any third deck that might end up in my stable later on needs to be something special, and also something that will stand out from the other 2 - hence why I'm considering something originally aimed for professional use with a big plinth and support for 12" arms.
Click to expand...

Sonic purity at a next level is what comes to mind. My other tables are a semi auto Sony and fully auto Dual. Both sound nice and I enjoy the respective ease-of-use aspects. But when it comes to serious listening the big Denon is unparalleled. Seriously it brings out a smile every time I use it, a visceral reaction. It really is the sum of the parts, super low w&f of the drive plus the platter isolation design, the high mass constrained layer plinth, and of course the accuracy of the arm all combines in a synergistic manner.

IME your thinking is spot on, and you have your eye on some nice candidates already. Assembling your own custom configuration is a lot of fun and very satisfying. Good luck with your project!
 
copper_turntable_4.jpg
 
I have owned 12 inch arms, 10.5 inch, 9 inch, and air bearing linear tracker. 12 inch arms have street cred with the vinyl gangs, but there is no objective way to say that a 12 inch arms is going to have a significant aural difference to make it worthwhile. Very few of us have owned 9 and 12 inch versions of the same arm, and once you change between models of differing lengths there are so many other variables that you cannot isolate changes to just arm tube length.

If you want a 12 inch arms by all means go ahead and buy one. My thought is if I am buying an arm for a table I am going to buy the highest quality arm available regardless of length. I know what I like for cartridges so I am going to select based on types of cartridges I like. The table can also dictate what type of arm I have to use. One of my tables is a SOTA and it requires an arm no longer than 10.5 inches, and its overall mass cannot be too heavy otherwise the suspension will not balance out. I installed a SME V on it, which is a 9 inch arm. My other table has articulated arm boards, so I can use any length arm I want. The Dynavector DV505 arms I have one it have an overall length of 335mm which is 13.1 inches, but an effective length of 241 mm which is 9.48 inches. Both arms track very well and have no practical issues.

In theory the Eminent Technology II air bearing linear tracking arm is a superior tracker to either of the arms above. Yet it is a pain to set up, and requires turning on an air pump whenever you want to use it. Yes it is an excellent arm and I would be willing to own one again. It is just not terribly convenient to use, and the associated stuff takes up room and is messy. At one time it was a go to pairing with SOTA turntables, and I bet its worth doing again.

I would say if you want a 12 inch arm then go ahead and get one. They are often beauties, and have a striking appearance. Just understand the gains from them are not cut and dry and you will often pay a premium for them. Also it is possible to get a 9 or 10 inch arm that is their equal or better.
 
I have a fat boy gimbaled 10.5 inch arm on my belt driven table with a massive platter and massive platen . I also have a Thorens suspended belt driven table that once had 3 different 9 inch SME's for a few years and then I installed a linear arm. Both use the same cartridge. The gimbaled arm set up is a little cleaner from about 1000 hz down. But the imaging and the tracing of groves is slightly better with the linear arm. I can swap cartridges and get the same results. So I figure the difference is mainly the resonance of the different arms, both TT's are belt driven, and the remaining difference is the one table being a battle ship and the other one a floating heavy cruiser if that makes any sense. I have never heard acoustic feed back from either TT where the previous 121 and 124 MK II fedback using SME arms from the late 60's and early 70's. That is one of the reasons I got rid of them. When I got my large Concert Grands the rumble from from the121 or 124 would make the grill Cloth flap on my speakers. It was even worse on speakers that could reach below 20 HZ and is why I bought the 125. No rumble and less wow and flutter and much better signal to noise. The ML 515 turntable has better signal to noise providing you don't tap or bump the platenIMG_2510.jpeg IMG_2117.jpeg .
 
adnick said:
Have multiple tables with 10 to 12.5” arms, and the very best long arms allow one to adjust the effective mass with split and/or additional counter weights. Suggest you take a look at arms offered by Afred Bokrand and read some of his comments.

Wood EMT Banana clone 12” estimated effective mass (EM) by builder, 20-24g

View attachment 2693543

Pickering 190D have several of these, people see them and assume huge effective mass numbers but actually the only articulated portion of the arm is the level that the cartridge mounts to, so the EM can’t be very high

View attachment 2693529

The Karmadon Gray clone about 11+” probably high EM numbers but actually works well with a variety of cartridges like the Shure V15III, Korf’s blog talks about this very combo working extremely well with the original Gray arm, which is considerably higher in EM than this clone…


View attachment 2693548

Stax UA70 made by Micro-Seiki, just over 12.5” and 15-18g EM with a light headshell and no additional counter weight but it’s adjustable, and can easily go into the mid 20s in EM


View attachment 2693559


Have more ,but that’s probably enough (-;

VR
Andy
Click to expand...
Nice collection! I especially dig the Russco :thumbsup:

Legrace said:
Sonic purity at a next level is what comes to mind. My other tables are a semi auto Sony and fully auto Dual. Both sound nice and I enjoy the respective ease-of-use aspects. But when it comes to serious listening the big Denon is unparalleled. Seriously it brings out a smile every time I use it, a visceral reaction. It really is the sum of the parts, super low w&f of the drive plus the platter isolation design, the high mass constrained layer plinth, and of course the accuracy of the arm all combines in a synergistic manner.

IME your thinking is spot on, and you have your eye on some nice candidates already. Assembling your own custom configuration is a lot of fun and very satisfying. Good luck with your project!
Click to expand...
It sounds like I may very well need to take the plunge and find out what it's all about - when the time comes, of course :).
 
Taketheflame said:
Nice collection! I especially dig the Russco :thumbsup:

It sounds like I may very well need to take the plunge and find out what it's all about - when the time comes, of course :).
Click to expand...

Thanks much, it’s a very fine table, @BillWojo is responsible for turning me into a full fledged Russco fan…

Andy
 
I picked up the drive and plinth as a first step. Initially installed a 9" AudioMods that I already owned to tide me over until I could accumulate sufficient funds to take the next step. Doesn't need to happen all at once. Nice thing about plinths with interchangeable armboard design.

Denon DP80.JPG
 
12'' arms have the advantage of lower tracking distortion across the LP. They also can operate without any anti-bias being applied, if fact most do not even have that feature. Why 12'' commands such a higher price ''beggars belief'' as the extra material used would be no more than $10.
Although many people do not realise it they are quite easy to fit on a plinth made for a 9''arm, just by adding an out-rigger. (see photo)

The higher Eff Mass is only a small consideration with the 12''. the Moech 12'' is 12 grams, which is 3 grams higher than their heaviest 9'' arm.
You can still buy new 12'' arms from as little $500 & go all the way up to $40,000, it all depends on your budget. The main consideration must be to ensure that the Eff Mass of the arm matches the compliance of the cart and if you are looking at MC then by far the majority of MC carts a low compliance, which need a heavy arm, so that means the likes of SME are out.

To check that you have got your eggs in a row use the Korf calculator, it is important to look at the resonant frequency of the pair.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...m/calculator&usg=AOvVaw3TZBwCCUJnkZylN5_xdzus

Cheers
 

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