AT440mla + slightly warped record= skipping?

chris8519

chris8519

Golden Ears; Tin Budget.
Hey everyone,
Today I received a new Audio Technica 440mla, and just love how silent/bright/accurate it is. I using it on my Technics sl1200mk2, and made sure to align it properly. There have been no sibilance/tracking problems.

Until now. I just dropped the needle on a newer pressing that is very slightly warped. My old cart tracked it no problem (m97xe).

It is a 45rpm record, and the little undulation is too much for the 440mla to track at the beginning. The headshell warbles all over the place until it skips back a groove. Further in the record, I can hear the stylus bottom out each rotation.

I am sure this has something to do with my setup:
VTF: 1.4 (upped to 1.7 to remedy the problem with some success)
VTA: 1.5mm high on the 1200mk2
Anti-Skate: 2.5 (as recommended by some. Turning it down or up makes no difference)

Is this record just warped at EXACTLY the resonance of the cartridge? The whole tonearm shakes wildly when it goes over the warp. I would be surprised if this is standard behavior. Any suggestions?
 
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Looking at the specs for the AT, it's a high compliance cart (for static or low frequencies) - high enough to make it problematic on the 1200's medium-mass arm. The resonant frequency of the arm/cart might very well be in the range of record warps on a 45. That would match your observations. A warp would excite the resonant frequency and makes the whole apparatus unstable.

The Shure also looks like a high compliance MM, but might have had a parameter or 2 in the right direction relative to the AT, and hence been a marginally workable in this situation.

Ideally you'd use the AT on a lighter arm. Perhaps a lighter head shell might help if there's one available.

I've experienced a similar issue with an Ortofon MC20 on an ET2 arm on a Merrill Heirloom. Great components all, but the Merrill's springy suspension, ET2's high lateral arm mass, and MC20's high lateral compliance all combine into an epic resonance problem. That AND the MC20 can actually pickup frequencies down to 5Hz (-3dB), which in turn will make your woofers dance like crazy - to either record warps, mis-centered spindle holes, or a SLIGHT touch of the table!
 
Yeh , i own a AT440mla & it tracks really really well on warped records , but i have a super light arm/headshell combo which would make a huge difference , so i too agree with the above post .
Otherwise all other records sound really good with that cartridge ?? It's a nice cart for the $$$ & after 60 hours of use , they really open up & sound even better (if yours was brabd new) the 20 - 30 hour point & then the 50 - 60 hours point it really starts sounding nice .
 
oh yeah, the cartridge sounds GREAT! Comparing the latest Jimi Hendrix all-analogue pressings to the 1997 CD release, the vinyl blew it away!

For the first time, my vinyl rig sounds BETTER than my digital setup. It had been about equal with the Shure cart. It's now firmly ahead. I can't stop listening to how crisp everything is!

Well, I'm depressed about the tracking issue, but I bought a separate headshell for exactly this reason. I can swap in the shure anytime I play a warped/dirty record.
I'm just happy it's not an alignment issue.
 
It may also be break-in related, particularly since it sounds like this cart needs a good bit of it. Catman posted a few weeks ago about a new M97xE he had (maybe the new SAS stylus?) that danced around alarmingly and I think even skipped over light warps for the first hour or 2. I saw a slight touch of the same for the first hour or so on my newest XSV-3000 Shibata stylus, and a bit more on a new V15-III SAS. Probably more noticeable because it was in a medium mass Technics S-arm. Either cart might have skipped at 45 rpm or over a more abrupt warp. Both began tracking and sounding great even over much worse edge warp after only a few albums.
 
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G'day all, yes FrankPA's correct, it happened when I installed the Jico SAS stylus on one of my M97xE's.

Initially it was terrible, it shook, it quivered and skipped over just about everything!

However after a few album sides, it settled down completely. My first observation of an unbelievable stylus break in!

Yes it could be something very similar. Give it a bit of time and some vinyl to play and see how you go. Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
Try setting your anti-skate @ 50% of your VTF value. I'll go out on a limb and say that is the norm. I used less than that when I had a MKII. Buy a little dollar pencil level to check your azimuth. You can check the headshell while it sits in the arm rest. Not all bayonet sockets are level. A milimeter or two off will affect sound and is unoticeable to the naked eye. Try a few different records (thin/180g) and look at your tonearm from the side while playing. You have the advantage of moving the VTA w/ease. The AT may sound a bit better level to a hair taildown.
 
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Well, after over 150 hours of breaking the AT440mla, the problem isn't fixed.

I recently purchased the new DMB album, and it sounds great, but has a slight (very slight) warp in it. I decided to test it @ 45rpm, like my last record (that was recorded at 45rpm). It still skips!

BUT: I tried to turn down the anti-skate, and it got worse. When I turned the anti-skate all the way up to 2.7grams, it was able to track it!

Ultimately, I was wondering if I should always play my records with 2.7 grams of anti-skate, or only on a warped record. Should I keep it always there, or not?
 
brush down?

I'm curious if you are running the 97 with the brush/dynamic damper down ( touching the record). I have had enough experience with previous Shure's with this feature to have a fair appreciation of it's effectiveness in a lot of higher mass arms.
Because (for my sins) I once owned a record store - a good half of my records are warped - for my use - arm/cart combo HAS to track warps.
 
You beat me to the punch...

Condorsat said:
This doesn't help but I can tell you that I own an SL1210M5 with original headshell AT440MLa and it does not skip on warped records. :scratch2:
Click to expand...

I have the SL-1210M5G with the 440MLa mounted on a black (stock 1200) head shell and it's tracking flawlessly at 33 1/3 rpm and 45 rpm. I did notice it bouncing around on an old Chicago II record, but it tracked it and sounded fine. I am tracking at 1 gm (I track all carts at 1 gm) and have the anti-skate set to match. VTA is set to "0" on the scale and I'm using the 1/4" platter mat from KAB.

Being an old "Shure" guy from the 60s and 70s, the jury is still out on whether this cart is as good as some of my Shures, but I'll keep listening with open ears:music:.
 
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Wondering how you are arriving at your VTF? Are you using an accurate gauge to measure your VTF? I have the same cart (NOS OCC version) on my SL-1200MK2 (as seen in my sig below) and have not had any tracking problems. VTF can and will be a factor in tracking slightly warped records so just make sure your measurement of VTF is accurate. BTW- I'm tracking mine at just a cricket hair over 1.6 g.
 
SOunds to me ike your turntable isn't level... side to side and front to back, you need to check them both. Being out of level will cause the arm to want to swing in or out as much or more than the anti-skate. Get a sensitive level.

Scott T.
 
scottrt said:
SOunds to me ike your turntable isn't level... side to side and front to back, you need to check them both. Being out of level will cause the arm to want to swing in or out as much or more than the anti-skate. Get a sensitive level.

Scott T.
Click to expand...

This is a great point. You can get a bull's eye level at a hardware store.

Another less likely issue, but something worth a thought could be subsonic feedback. A warp can be reproduced as a very low impulse. The sl1200 is pretty darn well isolated though. Does your phono stage have a subsonic filter? Check your woofers for large movements when the warp is negotiated.
 
J_sunne: no, it's not subsonic noise, because even with the speakers on mute, or listening to headphones, it happens.

OTOH, I checked my TT with a level, and it was a very small amount out. I raised the feet in the appropriate areas, and the problem has been remedied somewhat.

I also raised my VTF to 1.65, and that has helped too (it also sounds better!).
So I am considering this one solved, I guess. It isn't perfect, but it really might be the cart not jiving with the arm; I could always buy a sumiko head!
 
Anti Skate will vary from table to table. If you need more I would use it. Did you buy the table used? It may have loose bearings or other issues. Replacement tone arms are about $70.00 if yours is damaged. If you gently hold the arm and move it forward and back does it look loose at the bearings?
Are you using the KAB hydraulic damper on the table?
From my experience the 440Mla is a very good tracking cartridge on all of the arms I have used it on including SL1200. If it dances you are getting a resonance so changing to a lighter headshell as suggested may help.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
I do everything I can to reduce mass on the long end of the arm. Get the lightest headshell (the 'Bay for a few $ and 6.7 grams), the lightest headshell wires (SOAR from LPGear) and the lightest fasteners (Nagaoka from Gragae-A-Records). It all adds up and reducing the inertia really helps. It also changes the resonant frequency.

The M97Xe has the stabilizer brush that should dampen these motions. That's why we all have one - to track problematic discs (among other reasons).
 
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