Could a phono pre-amp help?

scola77

scola77

Out on the Tiles
Do the new phono pre-amps do a better job at handling sibilance and equalizing the overall sound quality than 1970 era receivers (like my marantz 2270)? I am not looking for perfection - I appreciate the sound of an LP, but I am wondering if it is my phono inputs that may be the culprit here (or the way my marantz handles the signal). Everything else I put through this receiver is gold, but the turntable just sounds a bit off - enough to annoy me.

Thanks!!
 
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I'd imagine the quality of phono stages isn't a constant in that era, although I don't have any experience with a 2270 personally.

Other than cost, I see no reason why not to go with an outboard phono pre :)

Are you sure it's the phono stage doing it, though?
 
JimJ[VT];2634645 said:
I'd imagine the quality of phono stages isn't a constant in that era, although I don't have any experience with a 2270 personally.

Other than cost, I see no reason why not to go with an outboard phono pre :)

Are you sure it's the phono stage doing it, though?
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No, I am not sure. It could be many things like the record itself, alignment, weight etc etc. I guess I am just hoping for an easy fix, and maybe since I am getting such good results from my other sources, I can bypass the phono inputs altogether and get a better sound.
 
Many of those vintage receivers have pretty darn good phono preamps in them, so depending on how much money you spend, the sound improvement going to something new may not be that big if an upgrade. Sounds like you would be better served to spend some quality time getting everything properly aligned, and THEN see if you want to try something new. If you don't already have them a good alignment protractor and a decent scale to measure VTF are basic essentials that no vinyl fan should be without.

Now, having said that, it is possible that the phono preamp in your Marantz is in need of some service/refreshing to get it back in top condition.
 
I had a new JVC 7.1 receiver and it didn't have a phono preamp so I bought a new Cambridge one and it was okay.

But then I got a Vintage Luxman L-430 amp so I did a comparison between the Cambridge and the one in the Luxman.

I connected the Cambridge to the Luxman.

There was no comparison the phono preamp in the Luxman won hands down.

So new is not necessarily better than old.
 
I'm more in Tedrick's camp. Make sure you've got your VTF, VTA, and cart alignment as best as you can possibly get it first if you haven't already. Then either try playing some new-press records as a test or check over your cleaning method to help ensure your getting your records as clean as you can get them with what you have.

For me, the main reason for getting an external pre-amp is so you can get a pre-amp that has an adjustable level so you boost the playing volume of records that lack in volume. It's main reason I got my ART pre-amp, besides being then able to hook the vintage table to the PC for easy digitizing of albums.
 
scola77 said:
Suggestions on where to find this? I am new to all this... :smoke:
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Alignment gauges are available from numerous outlets and run the gamut from free paper ones you print out at home to $200+ rigs you can buy from Needledoctor, Music Direct, and the like. Post your turntable/arm model, and it may be possible to direct you to a downloadable alignment gauge that you can print and make yourself. Of if you want to spend a little money, the $20 gauge from Turntable Basics looks good. I use the db Systems Protractor.

One other thing you should consider is the age and condition of the stylus in your cartridge. If the stylus is worn or the cartridge is in poor condition, that could have a real impact on the quality of the sound you are getting.
 
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I found the link to the free downloadable protractor here on enjoythemusic.com. Click on "clicking here" about half way down the page to access a DIY strobe disc for checking your TT speed accuracy and an Excel spreadsheet to design your own alignment protractor that will be specific to your 'table and arm.
 
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I just noticed that you have a Technics SL1200 Mk2, I have the same.

You don't need an alignment protractor you just need to measure the distance from the stylus tip to the headshell gasket. It should be 52mm exactly, a measuring jig comes with the turntable.

The cartridge should be parallel to the sides of the headshell.

The VTA can be easily set depending on the height of your cartridge.

Tell me what cartridge you have and I can tell you the recommended setting for that.

As for the VTF just set it using the counterweight at just over the recommended setting for that cartridge.

Oh and level your turntable as well, get a small bubble level and put it on the platter, you can then rotate it to get it level by adjusting the feet.

I also put mine on one inch thick foam blocks which made a difference IMO.

Also buy some Magic Eraser from the cleaning section at the supermarket.

Cut off a little square and drop your stylus into it gently four or five times to clean it up, use the white part only.

If you need any more help just ask.
 
I agree with the good advice given, before you start spending your pennies you HAVE to set everything up correctly first. A good test and set-up disc helps as well. Most settings are easy because you can get mechanical aids to do it but vertical tracking angle and anti-scating you have you have to do by ear, I have found it can be an asshole to get best results. and then its only truely correct on the record you used to set it up on! Also any a change in any one type of adjustment will effect the other settings?
Also the other things that can effect the final outcome are mechanical and electrical. I dont know your turntable but some just cant hack it! Mechanical noise, feedback, rumble and bad isolation. The type, make ,and stylus profile of the cartridge are also effective in the final sound. The connecting leads to the amp can cuase your problems and the matching between the turntable and amp may be out. Due to the age of your amp the components inside it may be aging and causing the problem as well. I have been fighting to get that sweet sound from my records for years and have finally done it! A good phono stage, turntable, leads and cartridge, well matched and set-up correctly did it for me.
Yes, the Phono pre-amp is really important, and its a fact of life that the best cost big money! Mine has tubes and that solved it for me. The reasons why it does is may be explained in this link http://www.iconaudio.co.uk/PS1.html or this one (the one I went for). http://www.iconaudio.co.uk/PS3.html
Possibly you have to find an "Expert" and have the job done by him, They still exist (well here in the UK anyways?) if it cant be achieved he will advise you of the problems and you can go from there.
I find that records can give the very best listening experience possible - way above the digital medium! and only beaten by a perfect FM radio broadcast (thankfully in the UK they still exist!). So getting things right will be well worth it in the end!
Good luck.
 
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G'day all, just my 10 cents worth. Before 'anything' else, optimium cartridge overhang is critically important along with the other associated turntable/ cartridge set up parameters.

As far as phono preamps are concerned, in some respects earlier phono stages have advantages in some areas and disadvantages in others. Perhaps the biggest disadvantage might be circuit noise. However it is worth noting that the quite common 'modern' phono stages based on the simple non inverting op amp gain stage work well and are potentially very quiet, but do not provide ongoing 6 db/octave HF roll off due to the circuit configuration used.

My preferred phono stage circuit, the excellent DIY Elliott Sound Products P06 design http://sound.westhost.com/project06.htm
uses a combination active/ passive equalisation approach which does provide the required ongoing 6 db/octave HF rolloff. I believe it does sound better as a result. It is also very quiet as the passive high frequency roll off also rolls off much of the HF noise developed in the earlier gain stages. Regards, Felix aka catman.
 
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I just picked up a small BBE from Guitar Centers, on sale for $45 in the store, it works great so far, Dave.

403743.jpg
 
This is some great information. It sounds like the consensus is to first check and make sure everything is setup perfect. Then run my turntable through another receiver and try to isolate the problem (turntable or phono stage inputs). If it is the receiver, possibly look into getting a good phono preamp and go directly into my receiver's aux in.

If there is still a hiss, I just need to get over it and realize records do that from time to time.
:music:
 
HypnoToad said:
I just noticed that you have a Technics SL1200 Mk2, I have the same.

You don't need an alignment protractor you just need to measure the distance from the stylus tip to the headshell gasket. It should be 52mm exactly, a measuring jig comes with the turntable.

The cartridge should be parallel to the sides of the headshell.

The VTA can be easily set depending on the height of your cartridge.

Tell me what cartridge you have and I can tell you the recommended setting for that.

As for the VTF just set it using the counterweight at just over the recommended setting for that cartridge.

Oh and level your turntable as well, get a small bubble level and put it on the platter, you can then rotate it to get it level by adjusting the feet.

I also put mine on one inch thick foam blocks which made a difference IMO.

Also buy some Magic Eraser from the cleaning section at the supermarket.

Cut off a little square and drop your stylus into it gently four or five times to clean it up, use the white part only.

If you need any more help just ask.
Click to expand...

I have a shure M97xe and applied the optimum settings as described in the instructions:

1.25 tracking force and anti-skate
Cartridge height 15.6 = between 0 and 1 tone arm height

I leveled it last night, it did make a little (tiny) difference. Do the foam blocks act as shock absorbers? Interesting.
I cleaned my stylus with rubbing alcohol and the brush that came with my cartridge. It is so new, it sounds the same no matter how many times I clean it ;)
 
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The Technics SL 1200 Mk2 is a great turntable and it should work well with that cartridge unless there is something wrong with the cartridge.

I am not sure what else to tell you but mine sounds great with a Denon DL-110 cartridge.
 
I FOUGHT sibilance for months with my previous cartridge (a sub-$100 model known for HMMM). I changed VTF, checked and re-checked effective length, ensured the VTA was spot on. Nothing helped.

Then I got the DL160.

PROBLEM SOLVED!!

JME

Good luck in your efforts.
 
I went ahead and ordered the DL 160 from Amazon. If it is as good as you say it is, I will keep it and return the Shure (still within a week).

I have it setup for Saturday delivery so I will be able to put it to the test by Sunday!

Thanks!
 
Preliminary tests with the DL-160 (assuming I have it setup right) sound fantastic.

I am not noticing sibilance on the high frequency parts of some of my records. I am still testing, but so far so good. What settings did you use?

The instructions leave much to be desired though...
 
Can't remember if the M 97 is susceptible, but the earlier Shures were sensitive to resistive and capacitative loading, and sometimes needed the have them tweeked to damp out the high frequency resonance.
 
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