OK, anyone open to a discussion on sound? First, I continue to be mystified by what makes one system sound different than another. Assumption: I can understand variation within a vocalist voice box, lung capacity, intonation, resonance and language, etc. Although reproduction of electronic sound is a different animal logic suggest that various mechanized sound systems should or could be made to sound the same (with tweaking of bass, treble etc.) My Quick Test: I recently compared my vintage Sansui 2000X/pioneer CS99a with my modern Onkyo TX 8511/KLH BTF 220 combination. Note: I did not use the same speakers. (maybe try later). The source was NPR radio. What I found was somewhat startling!! With the Sansui 2000X only, I could hear the speaker's breath contributing to a "live presentation" aura or feeling. More research will be need to determind if it is the receivers or the speakers which offers such detailed characteristics. Anyone care to provide opinion or guess? Will keep you posted.
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Discussion on the Aspect of Etheral Sound
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71Challenger
Super Member
Some systems employ newer electrons. :yes:
71Challenger
Super Member
Well, we ruined that thread pretty fast. :scratch2:
Not overly familiar with the gear in question, I could surmise that the Sansui had a better FM section? There was better synergy receiver to speakers? A better method of testing would have been to record the broadcast, then you would be able to listen ti the same passage on either system.
Not overly familiar with the gear in question, I could surmise that the Sansui had a better FM section? There was better synergy receiver to speakers? A better method of testing would have been to record the broadcast, then you would be able to listen ti the same passage on either system.
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JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
OK, I'll get serious. I don't understand what you mean when you say "the speaker's breath". Second, no two pieces of gear sound exactly alike. Even with a pair of speakers each one will sound slightly different.
71Challenger
Super Member
I took it to mean he could hear the breath of the person who was speaking on the broadcast.
The OP seems to be making the assumption that the gear should be cookie cutter, where we know that different circuit design, component quality (caps, transistors, etc) make for a very different animal. And we can't forget the infinite differences in speakers, drivers, xovers, etc.
It's like trying to say a Cadillac should be same as a Volkswagen. They are different and appeal to different people, and let's leave it at that.
The OP seems to be making the assumption that the gear should be cookie cutter, where we know that different circuit design, component quality (caps, transistors, etc) make for a very different animal. And we can't forget the infinite differences in speakers, drivers, xovers, etc.
It's like trying to say a Cadillac should be same as a Volkswagen. They are different and appeal to different people, and let's leave it at that.
ditto, I understood it to mean one system had better detail then the other.
so to be serious
well, seems to me that is pretty much the entire point of our hobby and pretty much the topic of most threads. I believe it usually comes down to everyone hears differently so everyone may have a different idea what sounds life like to them, which is why we try various pieces of gear trying to attain that life like sound. As each piece of gear is adding capacitors, transistors and even something as mundane as binding posts, they will each probably impart their own little flavor to the sound, not to mention by the arrangement of the circuits it could affect the sound stage etc.
There may be a whole lot of things going on in order to get those electrons excited and most companies have chosen either a different path or different components to get there - so each may have it's own sound even tho they are "mechanized" as you put it.
And don't forget that one receiver/amp may sound better on a certain pair of speakers while the other sounds better on a different pair. That is what is usually called synergy. While I use synergy just to keep it short, it could be something as simple as one receiver is a better match for the frequency range of a particular pair of speakers and not a good match for another.
Which is why many of us have been thru countless pieces of gear looking for those pieces that when all put together, give us that sound we are striving for, but the sound you want may not be the sound I want....yadda yadda yadda
so to be serious
well, seems to me that is pretty much the entire point of our hobby and pretty much the topic of most threads. I believe it usually comes down to everyone hears differently so everyone may have a different idea what sounds life like to them, which is why we try various pieces of gear trying to attain that life like sound. As each piece of gear is adding capacitors, transistors and even something as mundane as binding posts, they will each probably impart their own little flavor to the sound, not to mention by the arrangement of the circuits it could affect the sound stage etc.
There may be a whole lot of things going on in order to get those electrons excited and most companies have chosen either a different path or different components to get there - so each may have it's own sound even tho they are "mechanized" as you put it.
could just be me, but as you have been around here a while I am very surprised that you find it startling that one piece of gear may have better detail then another, especially a receiver as you not only have to take into consideration the power amps and preamps, but also the tuners, which as you have found out, can make a big difference.
And don't forget that one receiver/amp may sound better on a certain pair of speakers while the other sounds better on a different pair. That is what is usually called synergy. While I use synergy just to keep it short, it could be something as simple as one receiver is a better match for the frequency range of a particular pair of speakers and not a good match for another.
Which is why many of us have been thru countless pieces of gear looking for those pieces that when all put together, give us that sound we are striving for, but the sound you want may not be the sound I want....yadda yadda yadda
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71Challenger
Super Member
put them together and get...
"he could hear the breath of the person who was speaking on the broadcast, hence, one system had better detail then the other."
TADA!!!!!
Two peoples separated by a single language.
voltcontrol
Fizheuer Zieheuer
What's etheral, you mean ethereal I guess?
I have not heard the term ethereal in the discussion of stereo properties, but you mean it as a property of 'imaging' of the speakers or?
I do think a well matched system and proper speaker placament can do a lot to get good 'soundstage and imaging'. Having good speakers is the most important part of the equasion, but that's a debated topic in itself.
I have not heard the term ethereal in the discussion of stereo properties, but you mean it as a property of 'imaging' of the speakers or?
I do think a well matched system and proper speaker placament can do a lot to get good 'soundstage and imaging'. Having good speakers is the most important part of the equasion, but that's a debated topic in itself.
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Yes! Spelling bad-- I meant ethereal! I wanted a good "audio karma word" in essence to imply --heavenly sound. Now to my point-- I was impressed with the realisms of the full and accurate reproduction of the vocalist in comparison of one system over another. My thread purpose was to engage discussion: 1. Is it the receiver or the speakers? 2. In listening to sound do we just appreciate the reproduction of lingo sound or enriched by the other personal sounds of the communicator? Two examples: a. Listening to a Gospel preachers’ use of exaggerate grunts, yells, or a-men sound to inspire/incite their audience. b. Remember Donna Summers, "Love to Love You Baby". Very touching! It is hard to listening to either a. or b, without being moved. Therefore, I think we all agree (well maybe) that we like a system which is highly resonant with reverberant acoustic qualities. The question, Is this attribute supported primarily by the amp/receiver or the speakers? I now feel that I have a description for what I am looking for in a sound system.
terra1
Addicted Member
It could be either.
For the sake of enlightenment. Do switch speakers. And let us know what you hear. Could save us all some time.
I mean like there's quite a bit of difference between your CS-99A and your KLH.
And the Sansui has a reputation for a warm musical sound.
Some receivers will do better with the frequency range than others.
And receivers can sound great with certain speaker combinations. Even small speakers.
Your question is prosaic rather than pragmatic. The lack of seriousness may be because of that. It becomes a circling the toilet bowl discussion. Amp/receiver or speakers? I don't think you can make any revelatory or ethereal conclusions based on your microcosmic sample.
Otherwise it's a guessing game what you hear. Are you sure it's not popping Ps you're hearing instead of natural breath?
I nominate this for the Think Before You Speak Out Loud forum.
For the sake of enlightenment. Do switch speakers. And let us know what you hear. Could save us all some time.
I mean like there's quite a bit of difference between your CS-99A and your KLH.
And the Sansui has a reputation for a warm musical sound.
Some receivers will do better with the frequency range than others.
And receivers can sound great with certain speaker combinations. Even small speakers.
Your question is prosaic rather than pragmatic. The lack of seriousness may be because of that. It becomes a circling the toilet bowl discussion. Amp/receiver or speakers? I don't think you can make any revelatory or ethereal conclusions based on your microcosmic sample.
Otherwise it's a guessing game what you hear. Are you sure it's not popping Ps you're hearing instead of natural breath?
I nominate this for the Think Before You Speak Out Loud forum.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
I think what you mean is that you want a system that reproduces what is there without adding or subtracting anything. At least I think that's what most of us want. There are words for that such as uncolored or transparent. We don't want a system that is resonant or reverberant as that would be adding to what's there. That's the antithesis of Hi-Fi sound reproduction. Yes, I believe that for most people the speaker is the most important and most personal part of a system.
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Why this subject intrigues me! I use to do a lot of contract negotiations by phone and always was careful to listen to the words and dictation by the speaker. Critical listening could indicate when someone was blowing smoke, down-right lying or sincere by reflection in the voice. I guess it was the stress or distortation in their vocal harmonics.
To my friend Terra 1: No offenses but you are missing a point. It should be clear that I was simply sharing the fact that I could hear so much more detail in one system and soliciting comments. Must ask what is "popping ps"?? I don't believe this is the case since other broadcast details were being pick-up including the sound of paper handling. I accept the humor in good nature since I am not an expert, nor most of us here.
Now back to the discussion. I am not certain that this is not just a speaker vs. amp question or argument.---Are there other variables which should be considered such as antennae receptions, tonal response setting, etc. I will go on with my experiment but even a bad bootleg sound engineer will get feedback and even static from others as he continues his project.
To my friend Terra 1: No offenses but you are missing a point. It should be clear that I was simply sharing the fact that I could hear so much more detail in one system and soliciting comments. Must ask what is "popping ps"?? I don't believe this is the case since other broadcast details were being pick-up including the sound of paper handling. I accept the humor in good nature since I am not an expert, nor most of us here.
Now back to the discussion. I am not certain that this is not just a speaker vs. amp question or argument.---Are there other variables which should be considered such as antennae receptions, tonal response setting, etc. I will go on with my experiment but even a bad bootleg sound engineer will get feedback and even static from others as he continues his project.
toxcrusadr
Omelette au Fromage
I've heard ethereal now and then. The last time was at Jaymanaa's, listening to horn loudspeakers driven by really good tube amps. It could also be described as transparent, airy, detailed, etc. I don't have that at my house. Yet.
71Challenger
Super Member
I'm leaning to a far better tuner section on the Sansui. Swap the speakers and if you get the same result from the Sansui system then it's kinda simple to explain.
On the other hand if you loose the special sound on the Sansui side then it very well could be the speakers and the synergy with the Sansui.
On the other hand if you loose the special sound on the Sansui side then it very well could be the speakers and the synergy with the Sansui.