Mount Pro-Ject 9c tonearm on SL-1200?

Hi,
I don't see how a Speedbox can hum.I have used a Speedbox II with a thorens TD166mkII with a 16v motor with belt on the 45rpm pulley and never any hum. Only hum I ever had was with a Grado blue at the end of a LP and hum was 44.32Hz@33 1/3rpm and 60Hz hum at 45rpm(no more Grado cartridges for me and no more hum) So, to me it sound more like a rumble problem than a hum with the Pro-ject turntables because of the rubber motor mounts.
 
Hi,
I don't see how a Speedbox can hum.I have used a Speedbox II with a thorens TD166mkII with a 16v motor with belt on the 45rpm pulley and never any hum. Only hum I ever had was with a Grado blue at the end of a LP and hum was 44.32Hz@33 1/3rpm and 60Hz hum at 45rpm(no more Grado cartridges for me and no more hum) So, to me it sound more like a rumble problem than a hum with the Pro-ject turntables because of the rubber motor mounts.

My Speedbox II never hummed. As a matter of fact, my MMF 5.1 never had any issues. No problems whatsoever. I listened to it exclusively for over a year and enjoyed it immensely. Even though I really like my modded SL 1200, it too is subject for removal at any time in order to step up to a Clearaudio or VPI. It is not a question of if, but rather, a question of when. I like trying different gear and stepping up in a better component only to find a new weak link. Then, it's off to the races again...
 
I don't understand how or why my Speedbox hums, but it does so on contact at different frequencies at 33 and 45 rpm but the regular power supply caused no hum. I don't understand it either.
 
I don't understand how or why my Speedbox hums, but it does so on contact at different frequencies at 33 and 45 rpm but the regular power supply caused no hum. I don't understand it either.

Is it a polarized plug? Sometimes swapping the plug in an outlet can solve this. I know it sounds crazy, but I have a pre-amp and amp that hums if I plug it in a certain way. Plug it in reversed, no hum.
 
BTW, Mr Lin I think you stole my cat :D Mine is big black and clumsy and a good friend.

That sounds like him alright! ;)

So taking my better tonearm from my RM5 and putting it on the better turntable (regarding w/f and rumble), wouldn't it HAVE TO be better?

The point some of us are making is that, no, it doesn't necessarily have to be a better turntable than the RM-5, and IMO it is not.
 
I don't understand how or why my Speedbox hums, but it does so on contact at different frequencies at 33 and 45 rpm but the regular power supply caused no hum. I don't understand it either.

When using the Speed Box it is necessary to move the belt to the 45rpm slot on the pulley, this pulls the belt tighter, or in the case of most Pro-Ject TT's with the motor 'in' the plinth, cants the motor. See vinylengine.com for a wealth of info on this. I'm hoping as Moon unit has stated that the belt will stretch and the problem will fix itself. Not sure why some have the problem and others do not though.
 
The point some of us are making is that, no, it doesn't necessarily have to be a better turntable than the RM-5, and IMO it is not.

My question for you, and others, who are making that point is what am I missing that makes the RM5 better, other than the tonearm? Again, I'm really not trying to get into the debate of Technics vs everything. One unique thing about turntables in relation to most of audio is there's a pretty certain level of objectivity. And, if I'm not mistaken, the turntable, other than the tonearm, can and should be looked at completely objectively. It needs to spin at a certain speed accurately and with minimal noise. That's its job. So it seems one can and should be able to tell, objectively, if Table X does those things better than Table Y.

If you disagree with that last sentence, please tell me why. Many of you guys are much smarter and more experienced than me so if I'm missing something, please let me know what that is.
 
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Okay, Ill take a stab at it:

1. Tonearm, which we've established
2. Tonearm Bearings, included with what you want to move
3. Platter
4. IC's, or lack of as the case of the Pro-Ject (which would be an advantage depending on IC's used)
5. The Benz Micro you can put on the RM5 with the money you'll be saving by not buying the Technics.
 
I do like the Pro-Ject- a nice table.

However, with full respect to both eteller, and Mr. Lin, I think the Technics is a better built table in most aspects here, with a few shortcomings that are easily remedied.

Better arm bearings on the Technics (although I think the tone arm itself is outclassed by the Pro-Ject arm's general design). Better platter (I think MDF may have the edge in sound deadening, but in all other aspects is a cheap and low cost approach to a platter and inferior to alloy, aluminum, gun metal, crystal, glass, delrin, etc- and it's mass is low). Better construction. Better motor. Better performance. Better user interface. Better reliability. Better specs.

Shortcomings? The arm could use some bolstering- it is a blend of both very good design and compromise- excellent spec on bearings, but resonance tested at arm tube and end stub, and lacklustre arm wire and RCA wire. The resonance can be controlled a for the most part, and the wiring replaced, but the arm, besides excellent bearings, still is of an older design that has been improved upon in material and in execution, if not always fit/finish.

Yes- the possibility of IC failure. However, I have worked on lots of these tables and have yet, personally, come across an IC failure, even on the decks over 30 years old. Plus, ICs are readily available. Still, the point is valid and taken under consideration.

But the rest of the unit is wonderful- quick start/immediate pushbutton stop features, extremely low maintenance, speed select via a push of a button, low wow/flutter/rumble, durability, rejection of issues such as footfall interference, etc.


I'm a strong supporter of the Technics as a great basis for an exceptional table, when modified. I think an arm is a great addition to the stock table, and this also tackles the RCA and wiring issue to boot.


But alas, this is only one way to achieve a great table- one could also modify a Music Hall, or Rega, and achieve something great. Or one could buy a stock VPI Classic, and that may float their boat, or a Yamaha GT-2000, and also achieve some super performance.

Spending time with various decks of various makes and various brand names, I chose a certain path and am very pleased I have done so, but I am also well aware of alternate paths I may have chosen, which also would offer positive results.


As for the original question, I personally do think the Pro-Ject's strength is in the arm design, and a mating of that to what I consider a superior plinth/motor in the Technics, would be promising- at least in my eyes and in my ears.

Your experience may differ- and I hope it does- as it'd be an awfully boring, stepford-wife type of place here at good old Audio Karma if it didn't, and we all liked the same exact thing.

This way, we get flavor, excitement, and best of all, a variety of good possibilities.
 
Better platter (I think MDF may have the edge in sound deadening, but in all other aspects is a cheap and low cost approach to a platter and inferior to alloy, aluminum, gun metal, crystal, glass, delrin, etc- and it's mass is low).

deli, it is not the heaviest platter but at nearly 4lbs certainly not low mass either. You can't toss it around like a frisbee as you can on the entry level models. With the integrated vinyl mat (SE models) it is better than all those materials above (with the possible exception of delrin) in regards to sound deadening.


eteller, one thing I did do (after the hum was gone) was put a piece of cut rubber band, one on each side, under the motor suspension band closest to the spindle. This was done as a preventative measure after reading the thread at Vinylengine. The belt now runs dead center in the middle of the 45rpm pulley instead of towards the top. If you try this it may take care of the hum right away. Experiment with different thicknesses until you achieve that. One possiblity is that after time (after the motor suspension band weakens?) the motor cants enough towards the spindle that the belt will rub against the top of the pulley and transmit any and all vibration to the platter, causing a hum. IIRC this cleared it up for several people on that thread. This may or may not have been fixed by Pro-Ject recently.
 
My question for you, and others, who are making that point is what am I missing that makes the RM5 better, other than the tonearm? Again, I'm really not trying to get into the debate of Technics vs everything. One unique thing about turntables in relation to most of audio is there's a pretty certain level of objectivity. And, if I'm not mistaken, the turntable, other than the tonearm, can and should be looked at completely objectively. It needs to spin at a certain speed accurately and with minimal noise. That's its job. So it seems one can and should be able to tell, objectively, if Table X does those things better than Table Y.

If you disagree with that last sentence, please tell me why. Many of you guys are much smarter and more experienced than me so if I'm missing something, please let me know what that is.

I disagree with all of this and I don't understand how the turntable of all things is the component that can be evaluated objectively. I would have thought pretty much the opposite. There are variables all over the place on turntables. Look at all the features and tweaks that are out there for turntables...suspensions, mats, platters, subplatters, damping, isolators, feet, the surface under the feet, etc...and they all can make an audible difference depending on the system. If it were really just about speed accuracy and rumble, the whole turntable industry would seem to me to be pointless. Every review written about a turntable would be pointless after they listed the specs.
 
I disagree with all of this and I don't understand how the turntable of all things is the component that can be evaluated objectively. I would have thought pretty much the opposite. There are variables all over the place on turntables. Look at all the features and tweaks that are out there for turntables...suspensions, mats, platters, subplatters, damping, isolators, feet, the surface under the feet, etc...and they all can make an audible difference depending on the system. If it were really just about speed accuracy and rumble, the whole turntable industry would seem to me to be pointless. Every review written about a turntable would be pointless after they listed the specs.

The reason I say objectively is because there is an ideal. Ideally, a record would spin at the proper speed with no outside noise. It seems like all of those tweaks you mention are addressing one of those two issues. Again, I say seems because that's simply my understanding so far.
 
The reason I say objectively is because there is an ideal. Ideally, a record would spin at the proper speed with no outside noise. It seems like all of those tweaks you mention are addressing one of those two issues. Again, I say seems because that's simply my understanding so far.

If it's all moot beyond spinning at the proper speed with no outisde noise, we're all fools for not just dumping the turntable when it is so soundly trounced in that regard by CDs.
 
If it's all moot beyond spinning at the proper speed with no outisde noise, we're all fools for not just dumping the turntable when it is so soundly trounced in that regard by CDs.

I'm a bit put off by your attitude. You're acting awfully hostile when the whole point of my thread is to gain understanding as to what makes for a good turntable. I appreciated the PM you sent me but every post you've made in this thread has been sarcastic or vague. I'm not saying you or anyone in this thread is wrong. I'd just like to know why I am.

In response to this comment, there is more to the turntable than those two things, otherwise I wouldn't have said numerous times that I'm talking about everything except for the tonearm, tonearm bearings, and cartridge/stylus. But if there is more to the platter/plinth/motor etc than those two things, please tell me exactly what.
 
Ghumbs, It's a hard thing to quantify what makes a turntable ideal. Numbers/specs are only part of it, and while I do find them to be valuable information to base certain things on, it doesn't always tell the whole story.

Ideally, a good table is going to provide a good amount of isolation from outside interference, low bearing noise, low wow and flutter, low rumble, good speed stability, and things harder to grasp, such as an engaging presentation, perhaps PRAT (pace/rhythm/timing), ability to generate a wide and believable soundstage/depth, and a general sense of a hard to call scientific term, musicality.

Back to your original topic, re: Pro-Ject arm on a Technics- I do believe the Technics has great specs, and fortunately for this argument can back this up, but falters, in general, trying to convey "musicality", sounds a bit "dark", and is not as resolving/involving as some other tables.

Where does this problem lie? Well, if we are to believe tests done, it's issues in arm resonance. If we are to believe owners, there's also the arm wire/path/RCAs.

There may be other factors, such as plinth itself or perhaps at some point even the PSU or bearing are limiting the table- but the main culprit is indeed the arm/wiring, and by replacing this, one mitigates the problem of the table.


Is this the best choice? Perhaps for some. It was for me (somewhat- I run a Technics SP25 and EPA 100 and 250 arm/ADC LMF arm/Pioneer PA-1000 Series 20 Carbon Fibre arm).

But one could also address the weaker or lesser spots on any given Rega or Pro-Ject and also end up with a fantastic table.


What's a person to do?

Depends on the person. The money spent on upgrades of the Technics SL1200MK2, or the Regas and Pro-Jects, can add up- into the territory of some hefty competition, like a VPI Classic, a proven winner right out of the box.

Others may opt the classic Thorens idler drive, the TD-124, and a 12" SME 3012 arm.

Some may go a Rega P5 with mods, or stock P7.

Or a modded Gerrard. Or a custom Empire- I love RedBoy's custom Empire, and would be proud calling it my own.



Still, others may choose the venerable Technics SL1200MK2, and modify it to lofty performance.



The Technics motor unit and plinth is ripe for modding- it's base performance is impressive, and a slew of aftermarket mods are readily available to pry your hard-earned cash from your pockets.

The stock arm can be modded to perform much better, but yes, I love the idea of the Pro-Ject arm on this deck.

Other popular mods are a new center bearing with better surface tolerances. And a power supply unit that allows plenty of juice as to never starve the table, which can occur under less than ideal power source conditions (this seems to be for most tables however). Fancy feet to further isolate the table has proven popular.

If you were asking me, I'd say consider all the above, but I'd also heartily egg you on, and say "Go for it!"



One last thing- theres also the elusive "synergy" of a system. From the arm to the plinth needing to match (some folk say the way the Rega arm dissipates resonance is not ideal for the Technics plinth- others may argue this), to the proper cartridge, to phono stage, to speakers and amplification- all play a big factor too, and it's not always easy to component match.

Then, there's also your room/environment. A whole other can of worms, a whole additional factor to consider- room treatments, speaker placement, etc.

What's a budding audiophile to do? Go nuts? Perhaps! But I say experiment, try it out for yourself and see what works for YOU.

Listening to others will give you some good foundation to lay your work upon, but in the end, the searching, tweaking and self-experimenting will net you the final answer.


I wish you well on this journey!
 
I'm a bit put off by your attitude. You're acting awfully hostile when the whole point of my thread is to gain understanding as to what makes for a good turntable. I appreciated the PM you sent me but every post you've made in this thread has been sarcastic or vague. I'm not saying you or anyone in this thread is wrong. I'd just like to know why I am.

In response to this comment, there is more to the turntable than those two things, otherwise I wouldn't have said numerous times that I'm talking about everything except for the tonearm, tonearm bearings, and cartridge/stylus. But if there is more to the platter/plinth/motor etc than those two things, please tell me exactly what.

I don't mean any hostility or even really any sarcasm. Sometimes I write too tersely, so I occasionally am interpreted as having attitude that I don't mean. I really meant only to stimulate discussion and offer my input. I truly do mean what I'm saying when I said if specs told the whole story we should be listening to CDs. That format has no audible noise or speed deviation.

But back to turntables...Look at the SL-1200MK2...specifically at the turntable itself...not the tonearm. Notice its construction and how heavy it is. Many people consider that to be a great value in a turntable. Other people consider it to sound dead or bloated. Some people consider the primary problem to be the tonearm, but some people say it's the turntable.

Now look at something like the Rega P3-24...especially with the TTPSU...but either way. It has good speed accuracy. Its wow & flutter is lower than anything I would ever notice. The turntable takes a different approach. It is intentionally made lightweight and rigid. In fact, their highest models have what they call a skeletal plinth. By not being a solid board, it can be even lighter without losing rigidity. This approach is an attempt to dissipate energy, not to resist or dampen it. The result of the light and rigid design is that the P3-24, which has tested well despite Rega not publishing its specs, sounds quite different than a Rega RB301 arm on a 1200.

In the end it's a matter of preference. I personally think it's as subjective as a beauty pageant. You could get some general agreement from the judges on which contestant is most beautiful, but there will be biases and preferences that will influence each judge's vote.
 
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Bob, no hard feelings. I know what it's like to have those recurring topics ad nauseum. I tried to avoid it but it creeps in. Anyways, I appreciate everyone's help with this. Thanks!
 
I love my tricked-out 1200 MKII with it's Audioquest PT-9. I think you are on the right path with the idea of swapping out the arm and running with it! If you aren't happy with what you are running now then you owe it to yourself to just try it and see for yourself.


Then report back here!
 
I love my tricked-out 1200 MKII with it's Audioquest PT-9. I think you are on the right path with the idea of swapping out the arm and running with it! If you aren't happy with what you are running now then you owe it to yourself to just try it and see for yourself.


Then report back here!

Which armboard did you use for your PT-9?
 
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