(Re)damping cueing on Pioneer PL-41

finnbow

The Dude Abides
As a relative newbie to this forum, let me first extend my thanks and admiration to you, the gentlement of AK. I enjoyed myself a great deal and learned a lot over the past month or so.:thmbsp: I'm rediscovering a hobby that I let slide for far too long.

Anyway, I got my new (to me) PL-41 TT up and running great. My only issue is the cueing needs to be redamped, if that's the proper word for it. The arm lowers far too quickly, even when the adjustment knob is turned to the full "slow" position (actually turning this knob from fast to slow seems to have no real effect). I've read a few threads about replacing the damping fluid with silicon oil, but am uncertain of the procedure or a good source for said oil. I humbly solicit your sage advice on this, the more detailed the better.
 
While I've never tried it, I wonder if Glycerin would work. You can buy it in any drug store for cheap. It is thick and highly 'viscous', but I don't know how long it would last before it dried out.

Again, I'm not recommending it, just trying to get the opinions of others.

I also wonder if there isn't some type of spring mechanism that has wore out. Perhaps a spring washer. Have you looked at the mechanism?

To open my Pioneer (PL-A35) there are a couple of screws, one in front and one in back, under the turntable plater that hold the suspended table to the base. Loosen, but do not remove, these screws and slide them toward the center of the turntable, and you should be able to lift the suspended table up. Though, naturally you should lock down the tone arm before doing this. Though, the PL-41 may be different than mine.

I would think that is a mechanism like this, you would want viscosity, but not lubrication. That is you want the friction of the viscosity, but it would seem that the lubrication aspects of it would be counter productive.

I don't know if they still have it, but I have something called Synco SuperLube which seems to be clear thick non-oily lubrication. I bought it at Radio Shack years ago in a small dispense, but I think they also had it in tubes. I little goes a long way, and it doesn't dry out.

HOWEVER, I've only used it for general lubrication, not specifically for the viscous aspect. Good stuff though.

Here is a link to some general 'Super Lube' information.

http://www.super-lube.com/products-mn-18.htm

Among their many products the make a food-safe oil, meaning it can be used in and on product that have direct contact with food.

Here is the product I have -

http://www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/9104787

Even if it doesn't solve your problem, it is a good substance to have around.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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What you need is silicone damping oil, which is a thick goop, as thick or thicker than honey. The viscosity that seems to work the best for most tts is 500K (500,000). You can try to find it at hobby shops that stock radio control accessories, either locally or online. The idea is that the stuff creates friction between the arm lift shaft and the cylinder in which it rides. Ideally you would figure out how to remove the cylinder, disassemble it, clean it and apply new stuff. The easier shortcut that usually works is to either force it down the cylinder from above, or coat the lift shaft with goop and work that up and down to force it down.

Other members have found online sources. If all else fails, you can buy it at turntablebasics.com, but be aware that their shipping times are all over the place.
 
Turntablebasics.com(and don't expect it to be shipped lickety-split. It will arrive, be patient):
What you want from them is called 300,000 viscosity silicone damping fluid. Comes in a big old syringe, containing enough of the stuff to last a lifetime. When it gets shipped to you, eventually, here's the process--
1. Set tension to a mid range on the arm lifter(don't keep it pegged at S or F)
2. Loosen knurled knob on lifter cylinder and remove lifter arm from the cylinder.
3. With a q-tip or similar,soaked in rubbing alcohol, try and clean dried fluid off of shaft of lifter arm and inside cylinder, if you can get into it. Don't get anything jammed in there to do this....
4. Uncork syringe, and put a few(like 3 or 4) drops of the viscous damping fluid into the cylinder. Re-attach arm, and adjust to proper height before tightening knob.
5. Test if drop rate at mid-range setting is adequate. If still fast, remove lifter and add fluid slowly(one drop or two, test again, repeat). I suspect that 4 drops, tops, will do you just fine. That was all mine took.
 
TJLitt -

Again, you've proven to be a wealth of knowledge on this TT. Thanks.:thmbsp:

Quick question - How many revolutions does your damping adjustment knob turn if you turn it from all the way "S" to "F." Mine seems pretty "loosey-goosey" and will turn with little or no resistance for 6-8 full revolutions. Is this normal (or at least normal before the addition of some new damping fluid)?
 
I am having a similar problem with my PL-516. I have looked in the SM but I can't really see anything but two springs. I am having problem with the autoreturn, when the record i ended the arm returns before damper lifts it so it scratches my records :no: I need it to lift it quicker and stronger.

Any suggestions?
 
TJLitt -

Again, you've proven to be a wealth of knowledge on this TT. Thanks.:thmbsp:

Quick question - How many revolutions does your damping adjustment knob turn if you turn it from all the way "S" to "F." Mine seems pretty "loosey-goosey" and will turn with little or no resistance for 6-8 full revolutions. Is this normal (or at least normal before the addition of some new damping fluid)?

pre-fluid, the thing had no effect. Working properly, I think it only makes one or two rotations at most. Was happy with where it was set, so I don't think I played with it too much after fluid addition and initial setting.
 
Thanks for the information. I have two eight ounce bottles of silicon oil. It's like thick honey but it's slick. I use it for everything that needs lubrication on my car. Now I have a use for my new-to-me mint condition PL-41 I'm going to pick up tomorrow. Already ordered the thrust plate for $10 on ebay. Enjoy your turntable.
 
Love my PL-41. So big! So grand! And the stock needle sounds great- I actually found myself turning down the bass and treble for the first time (I've always had them both up and craved a bit more treble)...

Anyway, I just fixed the tone arm elevator problem on my PL-41 and learned a lot. The proper fix is a bit more complicated then just adding from above, but it's really fun and enlightening because you see how the whole contraption works. Here it is:
  • The tone arm elevator is actually pulled down by a spring which is stretched when the arm is up, and then compressed when the arm is lowered. The slow>fast knob simply (and gradually) stretches or compresses the spring's resting position. It might feel like the knob doesn't do anything, but that's because it's geared down a lot to what's on the other end, so that each turn VERY incrementally increases/decreases the spring's tension. Pretty cool!
  • The silicone oil's job is simply to just kind of get in the way and gums up the works a little so that when the spring snaps back to its resting stage and therefore lowers the elevator, it all happens less quickly. As someone else noted, the oil simply provides "drag"
  • SO I think officially you're supposed to go underneath, open up a little piston and apply the oil there (that's what I did)
  • There is one Youtube video showing how to do this and it's a TERRIBLY filmed video.
  • I think the guy does it right, but two important parts are off-camera and it's at 2x speed. (Then he goes to 1x speed when he pans over so you can see his equipment!). Plus there's no audio at all. BUT I'm still grateful he posted it because it was the only video out there on the topic!
  • Doing it up right like he does worked great for me. Still, I can see how it could all work just as well if you put the oil/goop in from above- really the goop could go anywhere and offer resistance to the mechanism
  • Honestly it seems like just about any kind of thick goop would work- I used the 300k silicone damping fluid everyone suggests, which was closer to petroleum jelly than anything else I'd seen. Nothing like conventional "oil" at all. BUT I think there's a lot more wiggle room for different viscosities since you could just add more or less of whatever you use.
  • Again doing it like the guy in the video is pretty fun because you can see how the mechanism and spring work. Really cool.
Also, if you're running fast, make sure you get the THIN belt. If that doesn't work, I found that adding electrical tape to the platter got me from 33.5 to 33.36. Hopefully I didn't introduce w&f, but I don't think so. And I don't think you really need a $15 thrust bearing. Anything smooth, durable and 1/8" thick would d the trick it seems.

Oh, and if there are washers or metal discs where the bearing goes- keep them. They are spacers it seems (to get the height right).

EDIT: For the thrust bearing, see below conversation for clarification. I don't want anyone to ruin their spindle by sticking just anything down there!
 
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Thank you for a well written post. It's interesting that the spring holds the tone arm down. I found some silicon oil in my dad's shop and was using it as an auto lubricant.
 
Thank you for a well written post. It's interesting that the spring holds the tone arm down. I found some silicon oil in my dad's shop and was using it as an auto lubricant.

You're welcome! Yeah the spring really surprised me. Of course, it's not pulling on the tone arm itself- just the tone arm elevator. Which I had to keep reminding myself, because for some reason I kept picturing it in my head as a spring pulling down on the tone arm. But yeah, essentially the tone arm elevator is spring tension pulling one way vs. silicone oil goop resisting the pull = how fast the elevator lowers.

EDIT: Also, make sure your tone arm elevator looks like the one in the video! I read somewhere that there might be two different tone arm elevators on the PL-41, depending on when it was manufactured.
 
To be clear...the 300-500k weight oil is not intended to act as a lubricant. And it is quite a bit heavier than Vaseline.

I disagree as to the equality of all materials for the platter bearing. It's a wonderful table...why cheap out on a sub-optimal bearing when a good one is so inexpensive?
 
To be clear...the 300-500k weight oil is not intended to act as a lubricant. And it is quite a bit heavier than Vaseline.

I disagree as to the equality of all materials for the platter bearing. It's a wonderful table...why cheap out on a sub-optimal bearing when a good one is so inexpensive?

Good clarification- I equated the silicone oil to lubrication (despite the heavy weight), thinking it was like a fluid missing in some kind of hydraulic piston or something. I didn't realize that the 300k/500k number meant what it means.

As for the thrust bearing- I agree and disagree. Ultimately I agree that this table deserves a premium thrust bearing, but maybe when someone is just trying to figure out if the table works, holds speed, etc. then something else would do. Ultimately its job seems to be just to add height 1/8" height under the spindle and give it something to sit on. But the fact that there are spacers underneath, presumably put in at the factory since they all seem to have them, tells me that the 1/8" thickness isn't crucial. Still, I'll edit my post because I don't want people to stick something else in there that could collapse under the considerable weight of the platter/spindle combo.

Part of me is just rankled because the relative value of the table ($50!), belt ($15 but essential), needle ($30), etc. is so huge, and the $15 + 5 s/h for the 1.8" featureless disc is disproportionately low-value. But I fully admit that it's psychological, and I concede that this table deserves a decent bearing!
 
I machined mine from Delrin bar stock. I used AW-32 hydraulic oil for lubrication. Without the belt on, I can spin it up by hand and it takes just over 3 minutes to come to a rest. That is a very good bearing.

BillWojo
 
I machined mine from Delrin bar stock. I used AW-32 hydraulic oil for lubrication. Without the belt on, I can spin it up by hand and it takes just over 3 minutes to come to a rest. That is a very good bearing.

BillWojo

I'm jealous and impressed. I saw that you could do that, but mine spins for about half of that. Using Delrin bearing from eBay and technics oil in the cylinder and around the spindle. Any ideas on how to reduce the friction? My table and platter are both level. Should I put oil under the bearing? maybe just flood the chamber with oil? Also, did you machine a dimple into your bearing?

And while I'm bombarding you with questions, does yours spin at 33.3 without any help from tape around the spindle, etc.? AND how many spacers you got under your bearing?

Mine was apparently spinning on no bearing at all for a long time because one of the metal spacer discs had a dimple in it when I got it. :/

I wish I had a PL-41 friend group in town so I could talk about this table! I sometimes just walk into the room where I keep it (home office) and look at it and smile. :)
 
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