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1955 custom sixty…in hand.

madwing

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i saw this on fb marketplace a few days ago and decided not to buy it. it was still there thursday evening and i had a change of heart…so i contacted the seller and was second in line. who was first didnt show up last night, so the seller said we could do the sale this morning. i had to demo and load with @Greg Nal the altec malibu speakers he bought from me…then i headed an hour up the road.

it’s got the 360 a/p/r combination, the stephens 206axa and a jensen rp-302/a-402 for the speakers. garrard rc80 that comes with a ge vr double-play cartridge. cabinet is rough, but i plan to listen to this in my shed so it’s not an issue.

i’m a happy man. this won’t really be touched until the summer, when i will make it my first retirement project…anyone have the schematics for the 360a/p/r?
 

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Quite a design! Push-pull-parallel triodes operating in Class AB2, pushing out 50+ watts RMS, with global NFB and a very capable output transformer. Forerunner of the 50A. Worth everything you can throw at it.

Congrats on a great find!

Dave
 
The “Z” designation in a model number indicated Fisher’s damping control feature had been added to the model. I don’t believe that feature was available from Fisher when the 360 was produced. With the 360 model, the A simply designates the amplifier chassis, and the P the power supply chassis.

Dave
 
sorry, i was unclear, dave. i meant the combination of the amp and power chassis, with the z-matic, means it's the equivalent to the 50az not the 50a?
 
i took the amp and the power supply out for some pictures today, and made some examinations. it turns out this was final tested 3-29-55, so it has just passed 71 years old!

the power transformer, listed as T-507-112 on the 50az schematic cuong so kindly provided me, is unmarked on my 360p; its swinging choke is the B version of the L-507-113. rather than the two 5AW4 rectifiers listed on both the schematic and the chassis, it sports 2 5U4GBs; it also has a 6C4 (where the 50az has a 12AU7). it's wired beautifully. aside from the two caps (looking to be C12 and C13 on the schematic) and maybe the selenium rectifier (which looks to be that little stacked thing top left of the second photo by the power transformer) there looks to be little to replace (depending on how the can caps measure). i'd think to add a cl-80 thermistor just to tame the input voltage at startup.

the amp has the A version of the 50az's T-507-115 output transformer, and its interstage transformer is T-507-123D. it has two 1614's for output tubes, 2 12AU7's, 2 6CL6's, and a 6C4; I have to assume the 6C4s function combined as the single 12AU7 shown on the 50az's schematic would do...but I am not sure (half the tube's pins are listed as part of the power supply section of the diagram, half as part of the amplifier section of the diagram for the 50az). much more to do here, but simple parts replacements mostly.

i do wonder about cleaning the tops of the chassis and getting them shiny. the lettering seems to be a soft-wearing silkscreen; some has worn off due to previous cleanings. the chrome is lots of pin rust; i was thinking of polishing the tops gently, then passivating the pin rust with evaporust. at least it'll stop it, or slow it down, and will show up darker against the chrome than red. has anyone had success dealing with pin rust showing through chromed chassis (i.e., macintosh, radio craftsmen, eh scott, or other chromed chassis)?

i am very tempted to fire the amp up over a long day on a variac before changing anything, and see how my iphone music sounds through the system!
 

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In the last picture it looks like the 5U4 on the right could be white topped but maybe it's just dust. Be careful powering it up unless you are sure the rectifier isn't toast.
 
thanks, yeah, it’s just dust, not gassy. but i plan to test all tubes and replace as needed before i bring it up on the variac. already bought some ge 5* 6135 tubes for the 6c4 positions, and i have all the other tubes except the 1614s. though i have some 6l6gc tubes that will do in a pinch until i get new 1614s, if i need them.
 
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hm. the custom 60 schematic shows push-pull-parallel 6B4 tubes, not 1619.
The 360A amplifier appears to be in the Ambassador from 1957 per the Fisherconsoles site. Any chance someone has shuffled things around, or is this really an Ambassador?


In a 50A 1/2 the 12AU7 is the first voltage amp and 1/2 is the bias regulator. 6C4 is half a 12AU7, and the voltage amp isn't optional so I'm guessing the bias supply is not regulated. Most things just use resistors.

No real difference between a metal 6L6 and a 1614. The 1614 has slightly higher ratings for transmitter duty, but its a different rating system than the design center that the 6L6 is rated under. Not really any different in practical terms. Also metal 6L6 tend to be a whole lot more available.
 
calling @TheRed1

Looks same as the '57 Ambassador in the Hamphire Cabinet. Amp is 5 days older than I am. Crap, and it looks better than I do, according to SWMBO! Red might know someone who has scats for it, or he may even have them.


Look thru the 45-65 consoles thread in the stickies. Fisher Consoles 1945-1958 you might find something there to point you in right direction.
 
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this is marked “custom sixty” on both the wood and glass of the 360r, and the ambassador came out in ‘57…this is from 1955 (certainly based on the “final inspection” card). the ambassador was the last to use the 360 series setup; it followed on from the 60-series in (about) 1955 in the custom 60.
 
In a 50A 1/2 the 12AU7 is the first voltage amp and 1/2 is the bias regulator. 6C4 is half a 12AU7, and the voltage amp isn't optional so I'm guessing the bias supply is not regulated. Most things just use resistors.
the way i read the 6c4 on the power supply it’s doing just that; the voltage amp appears to be the 6c4 on the amplifier. at least i think that’s how 1+1=2 here…
 
oh, and if anyone has the schematic from the ambassador hs-360 i’d be in your debt for a copy.

i have not been able to find *any* schematic for the custom 60 with the 360a/p/r. since @dcgillespie said it’s essentially a 50az, i figured it was all essentially the same but the 6c4’s allowed it to be 2 chassis.
 


Fisher Custom Sixty!!! 2 owners of '56 Custom 60's. Granted this list is 13 years old, but who knows, ya might get Lucky.
 
thanks, @larryderouin. i’ve been all over the site reading everything i can about it. as well as antiqueradios and some various bits at other sites. still no schematic!
 
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Mad -- I surely didn't mean to muddy up the waters with my comments, although now that I've seen the pics of your unit, it adds a whole new element (of mystery?) to the series beginning with the original Custom Sixty.

The Custom Sixty I am aware of is that which has been described in this thread -- triple rectifier tubes on a separate chassis, and separate amplifier chassis with push-pull-parallel 6B4 or 6A3 triodes (same tubes, different base) in the output stage. In my comments, I stated that the Custom Sixty was the forerunner of the 50A -- and that is true, but more specifically, I meant that by topology. By that analysis, the Custom Sixty is very much the fore funner of the 50A, with a split load phase inverter, pre-driver stage, and cathode follower driver stage driving a Class AB2 output stage all coming over from the Custom Sixty, into the 50A, long about 1952. To the original design however, certain compromises had to be made for it to morph into the 50A. In was transformer/capacitive coupling into the output stage, and gone was the third rectifier tube. In was a new bias regulator and preamp input stage to create the 50A.

But your unit adds even more fuel to that fire, as it is a unit I've never seen before, and by everything mentioned/shown here, appears to be the final iteration of the 50A design. Still a dual chassis build like the Custom Sixty, but now with the transformer coupled driver stage and push-pull output stage of the 50A.

So your amplifier is a blend of both the original Custom Sixty, and the 50A -- it would be fascinating to see the schematic of your amplifier to see how that blend was accomplished. It was probably a pretty good move on Fisher's part to help reduce aging inventory so it could be a cleanup piece, but still very much a member of Fisher's Class AB2 effort, and as I say, one I wasn't aware of, as I thought the 50A line ended when the 55A line began -- but apparently the 50A line continued on in the background as the 360A/P you have for console duty.

Nearly a couple years ago, I did a deep dive study into the original Custom Sixty for my own purposes when I became aware of that unit. I was already well published on the 50A and 55A amplifiers, and my intent was to design a "modern" stereo 55A amplifier, with fully regulated power supplies and mosfet drivers to eliminate the driver transformer of the 50A, without adding more tubes to what was already a well establish ultimate Williamson amplifier chassis, while still achieving Class AB2 operation. I wrote up a paper on it, but never published it, as it became rather involved to say the least. But in it, I discuss the necessary changes Fisher made to morph the Custom Sixty into the 50A, which at the time were rather bold for the high fidelity world. That said however, that project has had a very successful outcome, and has become one of my most favorite pieces of all time -- so again, your unit is worth everything you can put into it!

Will definitely be following along!

Dave
 
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if i knew how i’d make a schematic from what i have…but that’s beyond my reach. my only hope is to find a schematic. for now i’ll use the 50az schematic i have, and will assume the two 6c4s are serving duty as a single 12au7 spread across two chassis.

i bought some original ring pulls off ebay to replace one damaged on my set. i have asked the seller (who earlier sold the dial glass with the “custom sixty” on ebay and said he was parting this out) if he has any paperwork, but have yet to hear back.

one other thing. mine is from ‘55, and has a different dial glass font than any i’ve seen from earlier with the 60a/p/r setup. as far as i can tell it’s the same as on the ‘57 ambassador, though that is absent the “custom sixty” label on the glass.
 
Mad -- I've finally had some adequate time to properly study the pics of your unit, and went back and edited my post #18 for accuracy due to a couple of hasty inaccurate comments I initially made earlier.

For all intents and purposes then, your amplifier is a dual chassis version of the 50AZ, with the only significant difference besides the dual chassis build being that the dual triode 12AU7 bias regulator/input preamp tube of the 50AZ (V1), appears as a separate single triode 6C4 on the power supply chassis for the bias regulator, and 6C4 on the amplifier chassis for the input preamplifier. But that's about it.

For all intents and purposes then, and noting the the rather simple differences required to split the 50AZ design into a two chassis build, the 50AZ schematic will no doubt serve you well with your project. The 50AZ amplifiers went through their own various versions however, but yours will no doubt follow the final verson of the design. The biggest difference in all of the AZ versions was in the NFB and HF stability compensation networks used. If you are interested in the different versions and their effects on performance, or some modifications that can really help the design, you can find all of that in my thread here: Fisher's Original Bad Boy: The 50A Power Amplifier

Good luck with it!

Dave
 
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