Current McIntosh high power amps - where did the control go?

[Refugee]

Ok. That is a clickbait title - I know.
The controls I miss are 'Gain' and the 'Meter Range' control.
I have a 2105 as you can see in my signature. I would not miss the 'speaker on off' switch and can easily see why I don't see it on any new offerings.
I really like the 'Gain' control but I understand that removing it from the signal chain makes things cleaner, simpler, and that carbon track resistors are not really used.
The 'Meter Range' control however IMHO is a must.
If you have an amp capable of 100W or above it seems that the meters would be working below 50% of their swing at least 1/4 of the time. I like things loud but find that I use low volume half of the time (I never turn mine off) and I love to see the meters bouncing.
Does anybody else wish 'Gain' and especially 'Meter Range' would make a comeback?

 

[62caddy]

The meter range switch is important on the 2505/2105 because meter readings are in dB on those models. Once Mc went to watt meters, the range isn't necessary because the way the wattage scale is calibrated.

On Mc amplifiers with selectable dB and watt readings, the range setting only applied in dB mode.

Gains are a must for me to balance my rear speakers since they're unequal distance to the listening position.

 

[Refugee]

@62caddy Being that I have never owned one of the newer models, I figured I might learn something with this post. Am I wrong to think that if i am listening and only using about 20 W in the evening while the wife is asleep that the needle on a 2301 will only traverse this area of the needle?
I picture it about like this; only covering the green range.

 

[62caddy]

The range of the shaded area is 0 to approx 0.0275 watts. With watt readings, there will be visible movement throughout the range of output all the way down to 0.001 watt or so. The numerical marking on the far left is 0.003 watt. All that matters is that there's indicator movement so the output can be monitored.

With a dB meter, you would get no movement at the 0 dB setting at output levels that small. So the sensitivity must be increased. Then the problem is that higher volume levels, the indicator will peg to the far right, which can even result in damaging it. Not very useful either. So it's a constant battle getting the correct range which varies with loudness.

That's why @damacman's signature famously used to say, "It's easier to leave the meter switch at the 0 dB setting."

 

[SaturationPt]

@62caddy Being that I have never owned one of the newer models, I figured I might learn something with this post. Am I wrong to think that if i am listening and only using about 20 W in the evening while the wife is asleep that the needle on a 2301 will only traverse this area of the needle?
I picture it about like this; only covering the green range.
View attachment 3723831

You’re shading up to ~20mW, 20W will be over on the right close to the 30W mark.

My current daily is the 452 so picture your meter above reading 4.5mW to 450W / 900W, even with 90dB sensitive speakers at conversation level the meters are usually bouncing around the 3W-4.5W mark, which is above half-way, so lively enough for visual feedback.

 

[damacman]

The range of the shaded area is 0 to approx 0.0275 watts. With watt readings, there will be visible movement throughout the range of output all the way down to 0.001 watt or so. The numerical marking on the far left is 0.003 watt. All that matters is that there's indicator movement so the output can be monitored.

With a dB meter, you would get no movement at the 0 dB setting at output levels that small. So the sensitivity must be increased. Then the problem is that higher volume levels, the indicator will peg to the far right, which can even result in damaging it. Not very useful either. So it's a constant battle getting the correct range which varies with loudness.

That's why @damacman's signature famously used to say, "It's easier to leave the meter switch at the 0 dB setting."

LOL - nobody got that!

 

[62caddy]

LOL - nobody got that!

I got it right away. But unless the reader owned a 2505/2105, they probably wouldn't.

On a side note, the owner's manual explained how the dB meters could be used to test the cartridge's RIAA characteristics with the use of the CBS test record.

 

[damacman]

I got it right away. But unless the reader owned a 2505/2105, they probably wouldn't.

On a side note, the owner's manual explained how the dB meters could be used to test the cartridge's RIAA characteristics with the use of the CBS test record.

I use the 2500s in the shop system to demonstrate dynamic vs heavily compressed media - one amp set to dB, the other to Watts, same volume setting. Fleetwood Mac Gold Dust Woman vs Nickelback Photograph.

People are just amazed and they always bring up fatigue when I show them how modern media is recorded.

 

[Refugee]

The range of the shaded area is 0 to approx 0.0275 watts. With watt readings, there will be visible movement throughout the range of output all the way down to 0.001 watt or so. The numerical marking on the far left is 0.003 watt. All that matters is that there's indicator movement so the output can be monitored.

With a dB meter, you would get no movement at the 0 dB setting at output levels that small. So the sensitivity must be increased. Then the problem is that higher volume levels, the indicator will peg to the far right, which can even result in damaging it. Not very useful either. So it's a constant battle getting the correct range which varies with loudness.

That's why @damacman's signature famously used to say, "It's easier to leave the meter switch at the 0 dB setting."

Thanks! As I said before, I knew I might learn something with this post. I knew the relationship between dB and W was not linear but did not realize it was exponential and the effect that would have on the meter scale.
Another thing I learned is that I should not try to read a meter on the computer screen without my glasses!

 

[Refugee]

I use the 2500s in the shop system to demonstrate dynamic vs heavily compressed media - one amp set to dB, the other to Watts, same volume setting. Fleetwood Mac Gold Dust Woman vs Nickelback Photograph.

People are just amazed and they always bring up fatigue when I show them how modern media is recorded.

It is crazy how much the dynamics are squashed by modern mixing techniques. Great for iphone speakers or maybe the car, but not as musical or human.

 

[SaturationPt]

Of all the different topics and opinions on gear and everything else, … I think that this is one area where nobody disagrees. Compressed music is just lifeless and boring compared to real dynamics.

Even sitting and watching the meters and LEDs on my equipment is boring with compressed music!

I understand why it’s done to popular music, but I don’t have to like it.

 

[damacman]

Of all the different topics and opinions on gear and everything else, … I think that this is one area where nobody disagrees. Compressed music is just lifeless and boring compared to real dynamics.

Even sitting and watching the meters and LEDs on my equipment is boring with compressed music!

I understand why it’s done to popular music, but I don’t have to like it.

People don't even understand it. Many people I speak to who listen to music all day at work are just agitated and fatigued at the end of the day and they don't even know why. They voluntarily bring it up when the visit our shop and are like - WOW! That sounds awesome!

Same problem with commercials on TV. My 80 year old parents have asked me to fix this for them dozens of times over the years. They don't understand the explanation, and they don't care. So, they just MUTE all commercials now out of habit. Imagine being an advertiser and not even realizing this is happening in a very large percentage of homes which you're paying to get your message into.

 

[62caddy]

Compression is frequently done with classical as well. I hate it when the volume rises during quiet passages, along with increased background noise, only to get stifled down to nothing for the loud parts. Always with tuner listening. Never with CDs/ records.

 

[damacman]

Compression is frequently done with classical as well. I hate it when the volume rises during quiet passages, along with increased background noise, only to get stifled down to nothing for the loud parts. Always with tuner listening. Never with CDs/ records.

KBAQ here is minimally compressed, making it a joy to listen to.

 

[Refugee]

@damacman
Some of your posts have made me want to try an expander - I have not yet. I am assuming it is great with some recordings but, not a magic bullet for compression squashed music.

 

[62caddy]

FWIW - I've tried using the expander built into the C32 but it didn't accomplish much with compressed broadcasts. The material may have to be encoded to work properly. I don't know much about this department in hi fi.

 

[damacman]

Expanders work great with minimally compressed media, which was the norm when they were current. For example, Blondie's Rapture on vinyl. Without the 4BX, it's a great song that will have you tapping your feet. With the 4BX, you're standing on the couch playing the air bass.

On current stuff where all dynamic range has been quashed so it's loud as hell on a cell phone speaker, the 4BX can't do much of anything ...

 

[SaturationPt]

It is my experience that an expander, without encoding, can increase dynamic range, but not natural dynamic range. In simple terms it makes the loudest louder, and everything in-between is enhanced in proportion to how “loud” it is. If a simple compression this will mostly fix it.

At the recording level however is where a lot of compression happens, and it’s not linear nor constant, it is in the mixing. Soft voices and instruments will be brought up, very loud and dynamic will be suppressed, so that everything can be heard over the ambient noise level in a car or on cheap earbuds without the peak level being too high.

There are compression encoding systems used on tape recording where the entire input is compressed to match the dynamic range capability of the tape system, but that is encoded in a way that it can be accurately uncompressed during playback (EX: DBX and some Dolby), which is a little different, and a standard expander that you’d find in a stereo system does not have this exact capability from what I understand (just “enough to be dangerous”, decades old memory at best) but it can use its algorithm to expand somewhat linearly.

<edit> My experience has been with DBX and Dolby (tape) systems as well as a standalone DBX 3BX iii / 4BX compressor/expander, I have never owned/used a Mc preamp with the compander feature.