Have external DACs rendered "audiophile" soundcards obsolete?

M

Mahdulator

Member
Found some similar posts but nothing particularly recent, so thought I'd throw this out there.

I recently plugged my hand built PC into my rig. It features an X-fi Titanium HD and sounds great, but of course the question is always what's next.

Now, before I plugged the PC in, I had been planning on buying an external DAC like a Schitt Modius connected to a phone or other lightweight streaming/playback device for my primary digital source. Putting the PC in the mix gave me pause on that direction - why buy an external when I could just upgrade the soundcard to maybe an EVGA Nu? It has the same DAC as the Modius.

Looking around this corner of the forum, I'm getting the sense that many/most feel that soundcards are dead and there's no good reason to go that direction given the high quality USB connectable external DACs on the market. So, what do you all think? Would you spend money on a soundcard in this day and age?
 
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Short answer ... No, I would not spend money on an internal PC soundcard.

More detailed answer, internal soundcards seem to have had their market eroded to an extent by external DACs and motherboard based audio. There was a time when a soundcard was the only way to get acceptable sound out of a PC, but that time passed long ago. There are many things that external DACs can do, Optical & Coax inputs, balanced outputs for Amps & Headphones, and the fact that if a need to replace the DAC comes up it is simple to do. Add the potentially noise infested internal PC environment and there just isn't any incentive to buy a soundcard.

Now, If you already have a soundcard that is supported by modern OS's then by all means use it.

Mark Gosdin
 
Mahdulator said:
Found some similar posts but nothing particularly recent, so thought I'd throw this out there.

I recently plugged my hand built PC into my rig. It features an X-fi Titanium HD and sounds great, but of course the question is always what's next.

Now, before I plugged the PC in, I had been planning on buying an external DAC like a Schitt Modius connected to a phone or other lightweight streaming/playback device for my primary digital source. Putting the PC in the mix gave me pause on that direction - why buy an external when I could just upgrade the soundcard to maybe an EVGA Nu? It has the same DAC as the Modius.

Looking around this corner of the forum, I'm getting the sense that many/most feel that soundcards are dead and there's no good reason to go that direction given the high quality USB connectable external DACs on the market. So, what do you all think? Would you spend money on a soundcard in this day and age?
Click to expand...

Purpose - built PC sound cards are getting better. Case in point:

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Sound-Cards/All-series/Essence_STX_II_71

Would I buy one? Maybe. PC's themselves present other issues, not the least of which is fan noise that can be audible in the listening area. If the PC were fanless that would be ideal, but a fanless PC might have too small a form factor to accommodate a sound card.

If the PC had a fan but the noise could be contained outside the listening area, then a sound card like this might make some sense.
 
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There is nothing inherently "obsolete" about a soundcard just because the DAC is located within the computer instead of outside. Having the DAC located within the computer does increase the potential for interference from other nearby components, and this is the biggest advantage an external DAC can have over a soundcard. Whether interference from other components is an issue for you or not is going to depend on the exact configuration of your computer, but generally you'll know it if you hear it. If you're already using the soundcard and don't hear any background noise (when there is no other sound output from your PC) then it's not an issue.

You can also use a soundcard and an external DAC at the same time. As long as your soundcard supports digital output, you can run a digital cable (optical or coax) from your soundcard to your DAC and still be able to take advantage of any features your soundcard has while using the external DAC. I'd argue that this configuration, using an optical digital cable to connect your soundcard to an external DAC, is actually superior to using a USB connection because USB still potentially allows for interference to travel over the cable.

The X-Fi Titanium HD is a fantastic card and it has served me very well as the main DAC for my music system. Creative also still provides new drivers. If you aren't getting any interference from other components then there is really no reason to stop using it.
 
Mahdulator said:
(...) but of course the question is always what's next. (...)
Click to expand...

Uhm - why? If that actually always is your question, it would seem like there'd never be a being happy with what you have for you - and I'd deem that rather sad.

Anyway, regular soundcards simply have become less popular for one thing due to onboard audio hardware often enough having become pretty decent (at least on the playback side) - and then regular PCs have also become less popular, so that external sound interfaces connected via FireWire, USB or even Ethernet often enough are a more attractive choice, as one can use these with a lot more types of computers. And then, especially if one is interested in playback only, there is of course even more competition, be it by external DACs, DAC/headphone amp combos, stereo and surround amps and receivers (*) with integrated DAC section as well as music servers, streamers and network players.

And then one of course also has to consider, that not only many gamers have switched from PCs to dedicated gaming consoles, but also for PC gamers the era is over, during which soundcards with support for proprietary, dedicated gaming sound APIs (foremost several versions of Creative's EAX) had been desirable.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

*) Especially in case of modern surround receivers not rarely in combination with graphics card audio over HDMI.
 
Hi Lini- Thanks for chiming in! I've benefitted from a number of your Dual turntable related posts.

Don't worry, I am capable of satisfaction and appreciating what I have, but I confess that, like many I think, i can't help but peek toward the horizon wondering what else is out there. As far as this thread goes, I built my PC about 8 years ago and am trying to reorient myself to the world of peripherals, etc. I've always had an interest in hi fi, and vintage in particular, but only in the last month or so have I connected the two worlds.

My main goal of this thread was to tease out if there are any advantages to internal soundcards these days for my needs or if external DACs have eclipsed them in most meaningful ways to me.

A number of great points have been made and I do think I've been sufficiently convinced that further upgrades will take me towards an external DAC.[/QUOTE]
 
Mahdulator said:
(...) if there are any advantages to internal soundcards these days (...)
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Well, one could of course always claim, that a regular soundcard at least doesn't need a case. Whereas being connected to a fast bus, that can also provide quite a bit of power, isn't so important anymore, ever since reasonably fast external ports have been introduced, which in addition can at least provide sufficient power for not so power-hungry devices. Add to that priceworthy and small solutions for DC/DC voltage conversion, and it's absolutely no problem anymore to build for example a bus-powered USB 2.0 sound interface with four input and four output channels (including 48 V phantom power support for the microphone inputs), MIDI I/O and a headphone amp section, that has a low enough latency, that a direct monitoring function isn't really a must anymore.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
I just built my first PC over the summer. After years of nursing a Gateway into the 2020's, I researched and built my own. The Gateway had an upgraded Sound Blaster card that I was very pleased with. My new PC is an ASUS x570 Pro motherboard with a ryzen 5 processor. The MB supposedly has a great sound board on it, yet, I had already made up my mind on a sound card.

The PC itself is whisper quiet. I have no fan noise that disturbs listening. The reason I chose the sound card, the Creative Sound BlasterX AE-5 Pure Plus Edition Hi-res SABRE32 Ultra-Class 32-bit/384kHz PCIe Gaming Sound Card and DAC, was the DAC. I have learned over the years that if you have slots on the MB to use, then do so. USB 3.0+ connections are great for many things, but getting all those peripherals off the work space and sparing USB connections was important to me. Yet it was the DAC on the card that made me choose it.

The playback resolution of 32-bit/384kHz was the best I could find for the price in the summer. There are more expensive models in the line, but they all have this resolution. The distortion level on the DAC is .000032% on my card and goes down to .00001% on the two models above... the AE-7 and AE-9. I was not willing to spend the additional money for those cards, but I'm very pleased with the $139 I spent in getting this card on sale.

There are units on Amazon now with some better numbers that are not internal and are about the price that I paid for mine. I still prefer the internal aspect and it does record, which was a small part of my equation in buying it, in case I ever want to record the records I have. I haven't felt the need for that so far as the giant library of music I have digitally, sounds great thru my vintage Fisher 170 receiver and Polk speakers. There were a number of external units I considered, but ultimately the numbers on the internal were better than the others in the price range and allowed for the freedom of recording down the line.

It's funny, but I still look at what is coming out too, despite being VERY satisfied with what I have. ;)
 
There are a lot of devices inside a PC that could cause interference with a sound card which is not shielded. If I was looking to spend, I would buy an external DAC. If I already have a sound card that was acceptable to my ears, I would stay put. The internal sound section on my higher end gamer motherboard is decent enough so I am not compelled to look for an external DAC.
 
I do have an inline ground loop noise isolator before the sound line enters the receiver. It was $12 on Amazon. I used it and forgot about it on the old card so it's still in the line now with the new sound card. I'll have to remove it to see if I have emi or not on the new one. But there is no noise in the line at all now, so $12 to fix that is cheap if it occurs.
 
whell said:
Purpose - built PC sound cards are getting better. Case in point:

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards-Components/Sound-Cards/All-series/Essence_STX_II_71

Would I buy one? Maybe. PC's themselves present other issues, not the least of which is fan noise that can be audible in the listening area. If the PC were fanless that would be ideal, but a fanless PC might have too small a form factor to accommodate a sound card.

If the PC had a fan but the noise could be contained outside the listening area, then a sound card like this might make some sense.
Click to expand...

I bought the two channel version of that series for my pc. I previously had a m-audio card that was sorta semi-pro for sound editing or recording. I used it with some m-audio powered monitors and it sounded very nice for a pc originating audio stream. But it became outdated and as pointed out by another poster pc based cards are kinda on the way out. I could not find a card to replace it that had all the line inputs/outputs ect. Gradually I got out of doing that kind of work so I researched stereo cards and the best choice was the asus essence stereo version. It's sounds pretty good but I am setting up a Roon system in the house and I now have a pair of Klipsch speakers under my BX5s and no comparison obviously. They are powered by a restored Magnavox tube amp and I stream from my phone to an Audioengine B! bluetooth receiver. I just ordered a Raspberry Pi and a HAT dac for a Roon endpoint so my sound card will get used less and less. It's been a journey which started with " jeez, I wish I could listen to my mp3 library on my main stereo how can you do that?" BTW my pc fans are pretty quite so that is not really an issue in my case.
 
There is some great information in these posts, especially with regard to some of the soundcards available.

For me, the reason I use a sound card is that the PC can feed 2 receivers simply by opening the Windows sound properties window and selecting where I want the sound to go.
1. Motherboard USB out to Maverick D2 Dac>Sansui 6700 vintage stereo system.
2. Sound card optical out to Pioneer Elite home theater system, which also has several stereo settings. Since the receivers are on either side of the PC and a wall of speakers is spread out on that wall it makes for great way to do comparisons.

No matter what the source is on the PC it can go to ether receiver with one simple click. Additionally I am doing trials of AMHD and Tidal and by opening the Exclusive Mode window of those players all the choices for audio output show up in those boxes as well.

46B9F18B-1624-4F31-9CC5-AD6A18B14567.jpeg
 
Most of us use external DACs these days-getting the power rails cleanly from a source other than the motherboard is a huge help, as is locating the computer at a convenient location.

Those of us who record usually use an audio interface-both ADC and DAC in one box. I have a Lynx Hilo, Mytek 8X192ADDA, and love them!
 
Increasingly amps are digital until the very last step. So good analog output is often not needed anymore. Just digital. USB doesn’t need any special audio device at all.
 
Chris Brown said:
There is nothing inherently "obsolete" about a soundcard just because the DAC is located within the computer instead of outside. Having the DAC located within the computer does increase the potential for interference from other nearby components, and this is the biggest advantage an external DAC can have over a soundcard. Whether interference from other components is an issue for you or not is going to depend on the exact configuration of your computer, but generally you'll know it if you hear it. If you're already using the soundcard and don't hear any background noise (when there is no other sound output from your PC) then it's not an issue.

You can also use a soundcard and an external DAC at the same time. As long as your soundcard supports digital output, you can run a digital cable (optical or coax) from your soundcard to your DAC and still be able to take advantage of any features your soundcard has while using the external DAC. I'd argue that this configuration, using an optical digital cable to connect your soundcard to an external DAC, is actually superior to using a USB connection because USB still potentially allows for interference to travel over the cable.

The X-Fi Titanium HD is a fantastic card and it has served me very well as the main DAC for my music system. Creative also still provides new drivers. If you aren't getting any interference from other components then there is really no reason to stop using it.
Click to expand...

Sorry. Creative for me doesn't cut it. This company is more for those who consume, than those who create or transfer. Too much emphasis on gamers and consumers. Bloated, buggy drivers too often. I prefer other interfaces (and some Creative cards and interfaces annoyingly resample). At work, I use AudioScience, at home I use a Tascam DR-07 soon to be replaced by a Zoom Handy Recorder for capture.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
Sorry. Creative for me doesn't cut it. This company is more for those who consume, than those who create or transfer.
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I'm not sure what your point here is, as this is a thread comparing sound cards to external DACs and there is nothing about an external DAC that aids in content creation. The X-Fi Titanium HD, and many other high-end creative cards, do have very high quality inputs (for recording, etc), which is something you rarely see on an external DAC. I've used my card to make lots of digital LP recordings and have been very happy with the results.

KentTeffeteller said:
Too much emphasis on gamers and consumers.
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I guess since I'm a gamer, and a consumer, this doesn't bother me much. But I've never felt that the gaming features got in the way when I don't need them. The sound card just sits in the background doing it's job, no different than an external DAC. Why do optional features bother you? Just ignore them.


KentTeffeteller said:
Bloated, buggy drivers too often.
Click to expand...

Most of their driver issues were from the Windows 98 / XP era. Their drivers have been pretty good for a long time now, with most of the "bugs" coming from Microsoft changing things under the hood, that broke the drivers, rather than the drivers themselves. Even then, Creative went so far as to release new drivers for 15+ year old cards in order to clean up the mess Microsoft created. That kind of dedication, even to their older products, is what I would consider an example of good driver support. Most companies abandon driver support for their products after 5-8 years.

KentTeffeteller said:
I prefer other interfaces (and some Creative cards and interfaces annoyingly resample). At work, I use AudioScience, at home I use a Tascam DR-07 soon to be replaced by a Zoom Handy Recorder for capture.
Click to expand...

The last creative soundcards that forced mandatory resampling was the Audigy series (~2004 and prior), which resampled all 44.1k content to 48k, mostly for compatibility purposes. Even my old X-Fi gives me full control over the bitrate both during playback and recording.

But yeah, I have no doubt that there are better products out there if you really need a great ADC for recording.
 
Chris Brown said:
I'm not sure what your point here is, as this is a thread comparing sound cards to external DACs and there is nothing about an external DAC that aids in content creation. The X-Fi Titanium HD, and many other high-end creative cards, do have very high quality inputs (for recording, etc), which is something you rarely see on an external DAC. I've used my card to make lots of digital LP recordings and have been very happy with the results.



I guess since I'm a gamer, and a consumer, this doesn't bother me much. But I've never felt that the gaming features got in the way when I don't need them. The sound card just sits in the background doing it's job, no different than an external DAC. Why do optional features bother you? Just ignore them.




Most of their driver issues were from the Windows 98 / XP era. Their drivers have been pretty good for a long time now, with most of the "bugs" coming from Microsoft changing things under the hood, that broke the drivers, rather than the drivers themselves. Even then, Creative went so far as to release new drivers for 15+ year old cards in order to clean up the mess Microsoft created. That kind of dedication, even to their older products, is what I would consider an example of good driver support. Most companies abandon driver support for their products after 5-8 years.



The last creative soundcards that forced mandatory resampling was the Audigy series (~2004 and prior), which resampled all 44.1k content to 48k, mostly for compatibility purposes. Even my old X-Fi gives me full control over the bitrate both during playback and recording.

But yeah, I have no doubt that there are better products out there if you really need a great ADC for recording.
Click to expand...

I've been fine with most Creative for playback. Recording not as much. The Audigy is why I switched to Tascam CD recorders and later flash memory recorders. The work computers for on air and production run on AudioScience and nothing else. We use a few Macs in production alongside, one of our long time production men prefers Macs.
 
I has an Asus Xonar unit for a bit, the external A7 I think. Anyway, it sounded nice, but it was limited in terms of file type playback and did not handle DSD. I mean, personally I don’t understand bothering with digital audio at all unless you plan to go high resolution. Any CD player can play CDs but the advantage to going PC and a DAC to me is the ability to take advantage of high res material. To my ear, nothing sounds better than DSD. I have maybe 100 albums in DSD and I love them. Any system I’m putting together id built with DSD ability in mind. As far as I know, that rules out your internal sound cards. I use an old PS3 to rip my SACDs to a thumb drive so it’s all on my HDD.

For recording I use a recording interface. I’m just an amateur basement musician so for me it’s the inexpensive Behringer HD404 which records high resolution and 4 channels at a time for like $100 (I think the pandemic drove prices up a tad on these). 2 channel recording interfaces can be had for pretty cheap these days, no need to go in through a PC sound card unless it’s a really nice one. I use the Behringer for recording myself, as well as making high res copies of my old band tapes and of some records that I can’t find digital versions of.
 
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