MOTL and TOTL - Is what it is depend on when?

[CharlieBee]

We throw these two abbreviations around, Top of the Line and Middle of the Line quite a bit but what and when do they apply?

Take the Pioneer SX-1010 receiver that probably was TOTL the year it was introduced at 100 wpc. Is it still a TOTL a few years later when the newer TOTL SX-1250 comes along costing more and rated at 160 wpc? Then along comes SX-1980, the TOTL and last of the line.

In my case I own a Sansui 9090 and a 9090db. Were they TOTL when introduced? If so are they still considered TOTL since the G-3300 at 300 wpc or double the power of the 9090s, was produced later?

Now in our vintage audio hobby, we are looking back on the whole product line over several years. But at the time, for one year maybe, a model was TOTL for that year. Is it still TOTL or has it been demoted or regraded to MOTL?

Clear this up for me.

Charlie

 

[MAXZ28]

TOTL will always mean TOTL to me regardless if a later series eclipsed said series' specifications. It was the best you could get in the series at the time and I'll always consider the SX-1250 a TOTL Pioneer.

Anyway...that's my $.02 worth.

 

[ke4mcl]

these terms are just to vague to be taken as anything other than rough guidelines. to the guy that has a full mac system, it may be hard to convince him that any pioneer gear is top of the line. it may be top of the pioneer line but by far not top of THE line.

its all dependent on a persons perspective i guess.

 

[terra1]

... messing with your mind ...

Obtuse Metaphor #386: A Gold Medalist is still a Gold Medalist. They don't become a Silver when somebody gets Gold the next year.

A TOTL is usually identified with the year they are introduced in the context of the series of equipment. It's called Marketing.

What you're doing when you compare one TOTL with another TOTL from another year for demotion is out of that context.

Context is everything.

Everything else is messy.

 

[JohnVF]

The way it's used around here that I mostly see is that it refers to Top of the LINE that the product is in, not the whole lineup from the company.

The SX-1010 was top of that series. The 9090db was top of the x0x0 Sansui Series. The Au-999 was top of the Au-xxx series. Etc.

This doesn't mean that there wasn't another series better or later.

 

[Sam Cogley]

The way it's used around here that I mostly see is that it refers to Top of the LINE that the product is in, not the whole lineup from the company.

The SX-1010 was top of that series. The 9090db was top of the x0x0 Sansui Series. The Au-999 was top of the Au-xxx series. Etc.

This doesn't mean that there wasn't another series better or later.

I think that's a fair definition - the best example of that particular item produced by a company in that time frame. For example - the Supreme 600 and 700 series are probably the absolute top items ever built by Kenwood, but it's entirely fair to say that the 9400/9600/9050/1000 were the TOTL receivers during their runs.

 

[Tromatic]

TOTL is what it becomes when sold on E-Bay. A Sansui TU-217 is TOTL at the BOTL of the TU line.

For vintage gear, with the advantage of 20 years, MOTL can become TOTL, too. There are some Sansui AU's from the middle of the line that today compete with just about anything, MOTL or not.

Yamaha had some serious tech in the later CA's, but they never topped the CA-1000.

 

[GOYA]

For example - the Supreme 600 and 700 series are probably the absolute top items ever built by Kenwood...

I would submit the L series surpassed the Supreme series. But as far as I know, the L series never had any integrateds so the 600 would indeed reign Supreme for Kenwood's integrateds.

TOTL means exactly what is says. top unit of a particular line. The KA-8300 was the TOTL Kenwood integrated of the KA-X300 line but when the KA-X100 line came out, the KA-9100 was TOTL.

 

[Sam Cogley]

I would submit the L series surpassed the Supreme series. But as far as I know, the L series never had any integrateds so the 600 would indeed reign Supreme for Kenwood's integrateds.

Point taken.

 

[blackfly]

On the other side of the coin, it could be that the later TOTL units were actually WORSE, so just because it is later or "newer" does not necessarily mean it is better either. Sometimes, the original TOTL unit was done right the first time and later "improvements" did little, or worse, nothing.

 

[jstang]

TOTL is heavy and made of metal....

MOTL is light and made of plastic....

BOTL is stuck to the bottom of my shoe....and smells.

 

[boreas]

The SX-1010 was top of that series. The 9090db was top of the x0x0 Sansui Series. The Au-999 was top of the Au-xxx series. Etc.

Rightr, so the OP's list of Pioneer receivers were all top of the line because they were all in different lines, or series during a specific period.

John

 

[jhoyt]

But as far as I know, the L series never had any integrateds so the 600 would indeed reign Supreme for Kenwood's integrateds.

Just a point of clarification, the L-01A, L-02A, and L-03A were integrateds. I don't know if they were contemporaneous or not, but the L-02A would be considered TOTL of the L- series integrateds.

 

[trwham]

It is a snapshot in time of a given manufacturer's total product line. If it was ToTL at the time the particular piece in question was produced, then it is ToTL. Later models are not always better, as experience in the '80s proves.

 

[Arkay]

It is a snapshot in time of a given manufacturer's total product line. If it was ToTL at the time the particular piece in question was produced, then it is ToTL. Later models are not always better, as experience in the '80s proves.

This is absolutely right, as were Terra1 and JohnVF's explanations.

TOTL = Top of the Line, and nothing else.

Manufacturers create "product lines". These are products with similar characteristics, but which are differentiated in the details. The more power, features, trimmings, etc... that a product within a line has, the higher it stands in that line. Usually price is the means of sorting out what is at the bottom (simplest and cheapest), top (most powerful and complex and expensive), and middle (in between the bottom and the top).

So the 9090(db) is the TOTL for the x0x0 line, period.
The G-33000 is the TOTL for the G series.

It doesn't matter that one line is generally more expensive than another, nor that one came before or after another. A TOTL unit may very well not be the best the company ever produced; but it is the best of ITS LINE, at the time it was introduced. The TOTL may change for a given line over time, if and when a newer model is introduced that is better than the previous TOTL.

You can argue that a BOTL Marantz is better than a TOTL Sounddesign, and you'll probably be right. You can argue that an early tube Marantz is better than a mid-80s TOTL Marantz, and you'll be right, by almost any measure (other than, perhaps, portability and combustibility! ). You may argue, if you think it is true, that a TOTL McIntosh is better than any Marantz. That is your privilege, although it would be nice if you set forth your criteria and backed your statement up with evidence.

BUT all such considerations are IRRELEVANT to the FACT that at any given time, there was ONE and only ONE TOTL unit, for any given line. Apples and Oranges, otherwise. You can look at catalogs, features, specs and MSRPs to determine which one it was. Very often, the companies themselves explicitly identified their top models in their advertising.

I don't think this term ("top of the line") can be ambiguous, and certainly not to the extent being suggested by some posts in this thread.

 

[MasterZ]

I think when you mention TOTL it should always include year and series.

 

[stereofanboy]

MAXZ28 has it absolutely correct as does terra1 and others. No one considers all stereo equipment ever made to be " the line" or at least they shouldn't. After considering Tromatic's example, well to paraphrase Inigo Montoya, I do not think this phrase means what they think it means. I feel certain that a hefty percentage of the people Tromatic references are just lying. Who, besides us will know the difference?

 

[JohnVF]

So what if the lineup changes? I guess that's why year should be included.

It's like cars.

My 2002 WRX was TOTL for the Impreza lineup, but then the STI came out, and that was TOTL after that. So is my car top of the line? Well, it was, but no longer is.

 

[terra1]

For purposes of discussion ...

I'm sure there may be some fine tuning of the definition and exceptions, but let's not let form make us lose sight too much of the function.

Why: If you say it was TOTL in the lineup, it is understood it was the top dog or company's intended best offering, flagship for its period/year whatever.

The importance of consistency in definition and context allows shorthand communication.

Scores: This helps when people ask if their component is any good to know its place in the lineup. So their eyes can light up when they hear it was TOTL and they can gush over their score.

Debates: To be able to know it is TOTL for its time, also helps in relevant comparison to other TOTL in other time periods as a matter of debate. It provides a crucial point of reference. Was one year better than another? Which means TOTLs are not demoted but debated and evaluated only. Heck some can't even agree on which is the best TOTL. So what's the criteria? Worthiness or currentness? Who makes the official call?

Now, a TOTL at one moment in time may have slid because another more powerful or upgraded component was added to the lineup later, but that's what this forum is for. To bring out those little gems of history.

But to change the status of a TOTL SX-1010 to MOTL status in 2009 hindsight --- because of later offerings (do we include AV or HT?) --- is historical revisionism (negationism). When you start demoting TOTL components across Stargate timelines, then you create chaos in communication and global understanding, deflated enthusiasm, and long threads sorting it out. Again, who makes the official call?

 

[donberry]

I go with the in the year they were made rule myself. i have just considered it the flagship model produced by that company in that year.
I do not know the years they produced these, just using it for an example, if they made the , oh, let's say marantz 2275 and the marantz 2325 the same year - I would consider the 2325 the totl. i would then consider the 2275 just as high end. But, that is just the way i think of it