New Tube Not Bad

geode

geode

F4 Phantom Seat Jockey
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So I finally listened to a Telefunken tube for the first time. I was finally going to bite the bullet and get a pair of ECC82 Tele from Brent until...He sold the business. I bought a used pair from ebay. The seller listed all the specs of the tube test. They looked good. I plugged in and they didn't sound great or anything. I think the tubes had lost a lot of gain, just my guess. They replaced a pair of RCA blackplates that sound quite good. The funny part for me is I then pulled the Teles and installed a new pair of JJ ECC802S tubes. I was quite surprised at how nice they sounded compared to the NOS I had been using. The rest of the setup is a Roy's SP14 that has two Sylvania chrome domes in the gain and two RCA blackplates in PI and Sylvania 6X5WGT rectifier. It is connected to an Elekit TU8850SE where the JJ's are installed. Even after this eye opener for me, I still wonder about those Telefunkens, though. It is a disease I tell you.:)
 
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I like to run vintage tubes in vintage gear just to keep it in the same decade. Could I hear the difference between Telefunkens and JJs in either a vintage or modern amp? I like to think so, but I'm not a serious tube roller.

Fisher- and Dynaco-branded Telefunkens were common back in the '60s. Does that mean Fisher and Dynaco sourced Telefunkens from live tests or was that just the best OEM deal when buying tubes in bulk at the time?

The Audio Research SP3-A-1 manual recommends that the 12AX7s at V1 and V4 should be premium quality tubes such as Mullard, Telefunken or Amperex so I guess someone at ARC could hear a difference between those and the tubes you bought after using the tester at Thrifty Mart.

Just some random thoughts on the subject.
 
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I do my best to run whatever makes my stuff sound the best, but I’m certainly no tube roller. I just do my homework, talk with some people whose opinions I respect, and if I like the result I then put it out of my mind. Right now it’s KR 300Bs in the SET and Raytheon VT-231 (6SN7GT) in the preamp.
 
I have many brands of 12AX7's and 12AU7's. Tubes can be individuals even within the same brand. It is very easy to convince yourself that a tube sounds better when you spent more money for it. What I do know is that the TFK selects that I use for V1 in my MC30's are the quietest. I believe they have the NEC 12AD7's I had been using beat in the noise department. I have to put my ear right on the speaker grill of my 102db. Cornwall's to tell the amp's are on. Paul.
 
OEM equipment was tested in the factory back in the day to be sure it met spec. Tubes causing noise or unacceptably high levels of distortion were replaced as a matter of course. I believe many of the OEMs also tested the replacement tubes they sold under their brand. My point is that no one should be surprised if a NOS or reissue tube meets its general specification but exhibits characteristics such as noise or microphonics that aren't acceptable for hifi-quality audio. It's just nature of the beast. Certainly some tube brands are better than others in this regard, but a 70% to 80% acceptance rate from a random sampling isn't unusual.

Jack
 
2FarGone said:
I do my best to run whatever makes my stuff sound the best, but I’m certainly no tube roller. I just do my homework, talk with some people whose opinions I respect, and if I like the result I then put it out of my mind. Right now it’s KR 300Bs in the SET and Raytheon VT-231 (6SN7GT) in the preamp.
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I like to swap out tubes to see how the sound changes. My short few years in the tube hobby has shown this could be good or bad. I have read about most tube brands and makes. I really like NOS tubes if you can get good ones. I have old Sylvanias, RCA, GE, KenRad, and some Military Mullards along with new TungSol,EH and Genelex. To my ears my VTA ST-120 with 4 JJ KT88, 2 RCA Blackplates PIs and KenRad Vt-231 in gain position sounds the best to me.
 
prww said:
I have many brands of 12AX7's and 12AU7's. Tubes can be individuals even within the same brand. It is very easy to convince yourself that a tube sounds better when you spent more money for it. What I do know is that the TFK selects that I use for V1 in my MC30's are the quietest. I believe they have the NEC 12AD7's I had been using beat in the noise department. I have to put my ear right on the speaker grill of my 102db. Cornwall's to tell the amp's are on. Paul.
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Yeah, the placebo effect is a thing. These Teles are dead quiet, but so is the other tubes I tried in it. When listening to the Teles they seem fine at first. but when warmed up they seem to have no mid range at all and little base. Again, I am just guessing the Teles have lost a lot of gain. The RCA and JJs sound really good in comparison.
 
TriodeLuvr said:
OEM equipment was tested in the factory back in the day to be sure it met spec. Tubes causing noise or unacceptably high levels of distortion were replaced as a matter of course. I believe many of the OEMs also tested the replacement tubes they sold under their brand. My point is that no one should be surprised if a NOS or reissue tube meets its general specification but exhibits characteristics such as noise or microphonics that aren't acceptable for hifi-quality audio. It's just nature of the beast. Certainly some tube brands are better than others in this regard, but a 70% to 80% acceptance rate from a random sampling isn't unusual.

Jack
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Yeah, this is all true. I wasn't really surprised the Teles didn't meet my expectations more disappointed that I bought two weak tubes. Buying NOS is always a chance AFAIK. Problem now is all the reliable tube guys are retiring and ebay is becoming necessary if you want old tubes. Good reputable ebay sellers I have done a few purchases with and those tubes were okay. This time...Not.
 
geode said:
Yeah, this is all true. I wasn't really surprised the Teles didn't meet my expectations more disappointed that I bought two weak tubes. Buying NOS is always a chance AFAIK.
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Even 10-15 years ago, it was risky to buy "NOS" Telefunken tubes. I bet that in today's market, quiet, high-testing ones are like hen's teeth.
 
Mr Boochie said:
Even 10-15 years ago, it was risky to buy "NOS" Telefunken tubes. I bet that in today's market, quiet, high-testing ones are like hen's teeth.
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Yeah, I have only been using tube gear for about 6 years or so, although I have had the VTA ST-120 for 14 years. I am listening with the JJ tubes right now and I am impressed. I'm going to pull them and try the Teles again, for comparison. Brent had a good supply of smooth and ribbed plates on his site, but doesn't matter now. Am waiting on Jon to see if they are still available.
 
My experience is the new issue tubes generally sound better than supposedly NOS (which most the only thing new is the box…). You end up buying quite a few frogs before finding a prince. I have had good luck with new issue gold pin mullards, gold lions, electro-harmonix in matched sets. I use the JJ’s for testing when I am restoring a unit and then switch them out as they are robust and the world doesn’t come to an end if one goes poof. I have a Triplett 3444 which gives a decent view into a tube vs installing it and seeing what happens. One can chase their tail tube rolling.
 
jefferylhenr said:
My experience is the new issue tubes generally sound better than supposedly NOS (which most the only thing new is the box…). You end up buying quite a few frogs before finding a prince. I have had good luck with new issue gold pin mullards, gold lions, electro-harmonix in matched sets. I use the JJ’s for testing when I am restoring a unit and then switch them out as they are robust and the world doesn’t come to an end if one goes poof. I have a Triplett 3444 which gives a decent view into a tube vs installing it and seeing what happens. One can chase their tail tube rolling.
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I have no trouble getting great NOS tubes. I am trying out some new, Tung Sol branded 7581a and they do sound really good. As good as $15 Sylvania 6bg6ga. Sure, NOS Genelex kt88 are hard to find these days but there are tons of great tubes sitting around that are absolute steals. The aforementioned 6bg6ga, 6fw5, 807, 6bw6, 6ar6, and more are only an adapter away. Input tubes are big bucks these days but with a little creativity you can usually find single triode versions of the dual triodes at huge discounts. If you can use 12v or other oddball voltages you can get the best in the world for a fraction of 6v prices. I had someone make an adapter that allows you to use different voltage heaters. When I had an amp made for me I had it made to use external heater supplies.

New output tubes can sound very good but at a steep price. I haven’t heard of any new input/driver tubes that compete with old stock, especially in the 6sn7 world.
 
Trays said:
I like to run vintage tubes in vintage gear just to keep it in the same decade. Could I hear the difference between Telefunkens and JJs in either a vintage or modern amp? I like to think so, but I'm not a serious tube roller.

Fisher- and Dynaco-branded Telefunkens were common back in the '60s. Does that mean Fisher and Dynaco sourced Telefunkens from live tests or was that just the best OEM deal when buying tubes in bulk at the time?

The Audio Research SP3-A-1 manual recommends that the 12AX7s at V1 and V4 should be premium quality tubes such as Mullard, Telefunken or Amperex so I guess someone at ARC could hear a difference between those and the tubes you bought after using the tester at Thrifty Mart.

Just some random thoughts Hypic - Photo Editor & AI Art on the subject.
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What are the difference between Fisher and Dynaco?
 
isaacc7@cox. said:
I have no trouble getting great NOS tubes. I am trying out some new, Tung Sol branded 7581a and they do sound really good. As good as $15 Sylvania 6bg6ga. Sure, NOS Genelex kt88 are hard to find these days but there are tons of great tubes sitting around that are absolute steals. The aforementioned 6bg6ga, 6fw5, 807, 6bw6, 6ar6, and more are only an adapter away. Input tubes are big bucks these days but with a little creativity you can usually find single triode versions of the dual triodes at huge discounts. If you can use 12v or other oddball voltages you can get the best in the world for a fraction of 6v prices. I had someone make an adapter that allows you to use different voltage heaters. When I had an amp made for me I had it made to use external heater supplies.

New output tubes can sound very good but at a steep price. I haven’t heard of any new input/driver tubes that compete with old stock, especially in the 6sn7 world.
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Building your own gear presents a major opportunity in this area. Numerous NOS tubes that weren't used so much in hifi gear or guitar amps are still available inexpensively. My SEP amp that originally used a 6V6 in each channel now uses Sylvania chrome dome 12V6. The last two monoblocks I built each use a black plate 6AQ7 input stage (1/2 6SL7 equivalent). I also use high quality NOS Russian tubes like the 6J32P (EF86), 6N2P (~12AX7) and 6P3S-E (5881) to save cost. None of these tubes sacrifice audio performance compared to their more expensive cousins. At the moment, I'm in the process of building a new headphone amp using 6AQ5 outputs. I'm also interested in identifying other 7-pin miniatures that might be useful in new builds. I'll just add that if I absolutely had to buy new production tubes like the 12AX7, 6L6GC etc., JJ would be my go-to. It wouldn't bother me one bit if all the Russian factories went out of business. What's happening in Ukraine isn't their fault, but I won't voluntarily subsidize it.

Jack
 
TriodeLuvr said:
Building your own gear presents a major opportunity in this area. Numerous NOS tubes that weren't used so much in hifi gear or guitar amps are still available inexpensively. My SEP amp that originally used a 6V6 in each channel now uses Sylvania chrome dome 12V6. The last two monoblocks I built each use a black plate 6AQ7 input stage (1/2 6SL7 equivalent). I also use high quality NOS Russian tubes like the 6J32P (EF86), 6N2P (~12AX7) and 6P3S-E (5881) to save cost. None of these tubes sacrifice audio performance compared to their more expensive cousins. At the moment, I'm in the process of building a new headphone amp using 6AQ5 outputs. I'm also interested in identifying other 7-pin miniatures that might be useful in new builds. I'll just add that if I absolutely had to buy new production tubes like the 12AX7, 6L6GC etc., JJ would be my go-to. It wouldn't bother me one bit if all the Russian factories went out of business. What's happening in Ukraine isn't their fault, but I won't voluntarily subsidize it.

Jack
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I bought 800 RCA 6T8s (single triode triple diode) NOS in factory packaging for less than a quad of modern 6L6GCs. Lifetime supply of NOS triodes for my own tinkering and amp projects. But I also agree regarding the merits of new production. If I'm working on something that takes common (i.e. expensive) tubes I just fill it up with JJ (sans rectifier).
 
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