Speakers on a flat panel, all of them. Anything special?

SchweinHaus

SchweinHaus

Well-Known Member
So this thread is probably less about speaker model recommendations, but about speaker design in general.
I just got a pair of DCM Time Windows 3's, and I find them to be just a little bit of real magic. And I've been getting more into speaker design, and I know the idea has been around forever, but: Is there anything special about a given number of speakers splayed across the front of a speaker? I keep seeing ads for audiophile speakers that are two ways with a 6-8" cone woofer and a dome tweeter.
I'm told these DCM's are quite good, but they have me wondering whether or not there is any combination of drivers arranged on a flat surface that can compete with speaker designs that do... literally anything less. There's an element of time dispersion here that I think really adds something. My concern is that I'm falling into a speaker design gimmick or whether or not there's something in speaker design that wasn't adressed 30-odd year ago. Please, teach me.
 
Register to hide this ad
I suspect the magic of Time Windows is much less about the disposition of the drivers or type of panel they are on, and more about the ears and skills of the designer, whose name eludes me right now. If there were a magic bullet, there would be a lot more really excellent speakers. As it is, they are rather rare.
 
The subwoofer that uses a variable-pitch propeller to make very loud, very low bass seems like a big, new idea. Lots of small new ideas. But the physics of sound stays the same, and has been mostly known since the '30s. Imaging was the last criteria, and the most subjectively judged, to achieve recognition of importance. Jon Dahlquist and Steve Eberbach brought "You are there" speakers to the masses, using dynamic drivers. Good imaging is not thought to be difficult nowadays. They are as much thought-pioneers as breakthrough designers.
 
Last edited:
sqlsavior said:
The subwoofer that uses a variable-pitch propeller to make very loud, very low bass seems like a big, new idea.
Click to expand...

That's the Eminent Technology TRW-17 "Sub". Basically a fan mounted in the floor or ceiling of the room. It's wired to respond to the stereo signal, and output bass by pulsing the fan. It's supposed to sound pretty impressive.

RW_front.jpg
 
I've never heard the fan subwoofer, so I can't comment on its sound, but the domestic acceptance factor must be very well into the negative numbers. And not for houses with pets or children. Or clumsy or drunken adults. Which seems to limit it's market.
 
Nat said:
I've never heard the fan subwoofer, so I can't comment on its sound, but the domestic acceptance factor must be very well into the negative numbers. And not for houses with pets or children. Or clumsy or drunken adults. Which seems to limit it's market.
Click to expand...

The "Sub" is installed in an infinite baffle arrangement, mounted in the crawl space, basement, attic. So, it's never seen, just heard. :D

image004.jpg
 
I think they don't put them all on the same plane because of the delay in time of the sound that different drivers produce
 
Last edited:
Not to hijack the thread, but how is the fan able to alternate positive and negative pressures almost instantaneously - variable pitch blades?
 
mikeybc said:
Gee one could easily thjnk that was a Lirpa Labs design.

Wish i coukd see/hear one in action.
Click to expand...

Lirpa Labs; one of my favorite high end companies! They definitely produced one of a kind products! :)

I'd love to hear one of these Eminent Tech subs as well. And that thing is a true subwoofer. 1Hz to 30Hz +/- 4dB...! :eek:
I suppose I'd better bring a change of clothes, for after the audition!

image002.jpg
 
And since this is a flat speaker thread, I'd love to hear a pair of Eminent Tech's LFT-8B speakers. Like their sub, propriety planar magnetic drivers designed and built in house. Bruce Thigpen knows his stuff.

8walnut.png
 
As I've thought it over, I like to think of these time window 3's as a kind of delay pedal. By bouncing sound in different directions, they essentially make the sounds spread around the room for a second. This means they take longer to hit your ears, and it feels like hearing the sounds for an extra quarter second opens things up a bit. This was a relatively early transmission line design.
To the original idea, I don't see how driver and cabinet quality could have as big of an effect as a transmission line idea, let alone the Kef 104/2 design that I'm really trying to find in my price range.
If I had a nickel for every 6-8" woofer with a 3/4-1" tweeter design out there, I could afford any pair of said speakers I want. You can spend anywhere from $60 to $2,000 for that design new, and I can't imagine drivers and cabs alone make that big of a difference. If it did, the driver design would come down in price and we'd all be reveling in amazing, cheap speakers, at least in theory.
One speaker design that has really caught my eye lately is the Mirage Omni-polar models. That seems like something new and interesting, and the reviews seem to bear it out, along with the fact that they're rarely up for sale used. And, as much as I am skeptical of flat panel design, I am also dying to hear a pair of mangeplanar speakers.
I guess what I'm looking for is someone to convince me that there *is* something that can be done with the traditional box speakers with a handful of drivers arranged on a flat panel that could actually do what other systems do. The time windows is an incredible simple design, and I'm already feeling a world of difference, even as compared to the ADS L-1290's and Infinity emits I was previously running. Any thoughts?
 
Why would you think that a "transmission line" design, which only affects a handful of bass frequencies near the line's wavelength, has more to do with a speaker's sound than the drivers themselves, which are literally producing all of the frequencies that the speaker puts out?

Why can't you imagine that drivers and cabinets alone make that big of a difference? Let alone ignore human behavior in favor of some silly free-market theory advocated mainly by wankers? ;)

If you want to hear what traditional box speakers are capable of, listen to some Harbeths, especially the ones bigger than their mini-monitors. And FWIW, my 'stats are considerably clearer than my Magneplanars. The Mirage designs are interesting. Cabinets (or their absence) chiefly affect how the speaker interacts with the room, which is half of the sonic battle imo, and often ignored by gear-heads.

Time Windows are indeed special. They, along with Dahlquist DQ-10s, pioneered dynamic-driver designs that paid attention to spatial qualities - imaging and soundstage. For much of audio's loudspeaker history, nobody paid any attention to imaging, believe it or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom