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The new FIIO Warmer R2R Tube Buffer DAC
- Thread starter Jon S
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An ever increasing number of subjective reviews are showing up on youtube on this piece - mostly quite positive. Meanwhile, the FiiO Warmer R2R Tube DAC thread on ASR was locked by the moderator. Objective / measurements-first types were having a hard time accepting that it could sound good...the few subjectivists weren't backing down. LOL.
I'll let the subjective reviews speak for themselves, but one attribute you current and future owners may appreciate about this DAC is that it's warm, smooth sound is apparent at low volumes...I'm probably listening at lower than average volumes and digging how it sounds. Vocal intelligibility is high, acoustic and electric guitars and pianos / organs, for example, are infused with the musical beauty the tubes provide. It may not be 100% accurate but it's enjoyable and I think that's resonating with the buying public. My $0.02.
I'll let the subjective reviews speak for themselves, but one attribute you current and future owners may appreciate about this DAC is that it's warm, smooth sound is apparent at low volumes...I'm probably listening at lower than average volumes and digging how it sounds. Vocal intelligibility is high, acoustic and electric guitars and pianos / organs, for example, are infused with the musical beauty the tubes provide. It may not be 100% accurate but it's enjoyable and I think that's resonating with the buying public. My $0.02.
SWL3600
Super Member
Has anyone previously owned or compared this DAC to the Maverick Audio Tubemagic D2?
It's funny that I just came across this thread about this new tube DAC at the same time I just started listening to my D2 again yesterday after years of using other DACs. This D2 still sounds great. It's got that tube sound influence that's just enough to make everything sound very listenable. I dig it.
It's funny that I just came across this thread about this new tube DAC at the same time I just started listening to my D2 again yesterday after years of using other DACs. This D2 still sounds great. It's got that tube sound influence that's just enough to make everything sound very listenable. I dig it.
Threads get usually locked on ASR not because objectivists have a hard time accepting it can sound good, but because subjectivists keep insisting that measurements don't tell the whole story, that science cannot measure everything, that what's deemed inaudible by science is actually audible by a few chosen ones, that they are able to hear things which cannot be measured, etc. If the subjectivists accepted that it sounds good simply because they happen to like the sound of distortion and non-linear frequency response (which, of course, there's nothing wrong with), then no threads would be locked. But of course, they can't. They must brag about their golden ears and the inability of science to measure up to them, thus forcing the moderators to step in.
It is known, and accepted even by the most hardcore objectivists, that certain kinds of distortion, as well as a small bump in some frequencies or an early roll-off of others, can sound pleasing to the ear. If you enjoy that, that's absolutely fine. No one has a problem with that. But if you go on a science-oriented forum and claim their science is wrong, then you can't expect the thread to have a long life.
No, that's not it.Threads get usually locked on ASR not because objectivists have a hard time accepting it can sound good, but because subjectivists keep insisting that measurements don't tell the whole story, that science cannot measure everything, that what's deemed inaudible by science is actually audible by a few chosen ones, that they are able to hear things which cannot be measured, etc. If the subjectivists accepted that it sounds good simply because they happen to like the sound of distortion and non-linear frequency response (which, of course, there's nothing wrong with), then no threads would be locked. But of course, they can't. They must brag about their golden ears and the inability of science to measure up to them, thus forcing the moderators to step in.
It is known, and accepted even by the most hardcore objectivists, that certain kinds of distortion, as well as a small bump in some frequencies or an early roll-off of others, can sound pleasing to the ear. If you enjoy that, that's absolutely fine. No one has a problem with that. But if you go on a science-oriented forum and claim their science is wrong, then you can't expect the thread to have a long life.
I said "usually". I hadn't read this particular one.
But I took a look in the meantime at the last two or three pages, and it was one guy insisting that measurements are worthless, because we all hear differently, and we all have different preferences, and there's "synergy" between components that changes everything, and so on. People tried to explain that yes, we may have different preferences, and we may hear differently, but those measurements are meant to establish a baseline. Even though we see differently, that doesn't make display calibration worthless, does it? No one would argue that an uncalibrated monitor is better just because we all see differently and some of us may prefer a pink-tinted one. But no, he wouldn't have it. He kept insisting that science and measurements are useless, because you can't measure what you actually hear. Well, on a forum dedicated to measurements, that kind of attitude is bound to get the thread closed. Because it's not the first time it happens, and moderators are well aware of where it will go if they allow it.
Frankly, it seems to me the objectivists were very nice and polite in their replies, and tried to explain their take in a reasonable manner. But all of their explanations fell on deaf ears. It's like arguing with religion. You can't win. So you just close it and call it a day.
I do understand the subjectivists' take. It's easier to tell yourself that you prefer this or that device because it's really good despite the measurements, or because those measurements are somehow invalidated by your room, or by the "synergy" of your gear, or by your own hearing, than it is to admit that you prefer it simply because its distortion pattern just happens to sound pleasing to you. We all tend to defend and to justify our choices. But if you do it in the wrong community, then you can't expect to be tolerated for too long.
But I took a look in the meantime at the last two or three pages, and it was one guy insisting that measurements are worthless, because we all hear differently, and we all have different preferences, and there's "synergy" between components that changes everything, and so on. People tried to explain that yes, we may have different preferences, and we may hear differently, but those measurements are meant to establish a baseline. Even though we see differently, that doesn't make display calibration worthless, does it? No one would argue that an uncalibrated monitor is better just because we all see differently and some of us may prefer a pink-tinted one. But no, he wouldn't have it. He kept insisting that science and measurements are useless, because you can't measure what you actually hear. Well, on a forum dedicated to measurements, that kind of attitude is bound to get the thread closed. Because it's not the first time it happens, and moderators are well aware of where it will go if they allow it.
Frankly, it seems to me the objectivists were very nice and polite in their replies, and tried to explain their take in a reasonable manner. But all of their explanations fell on deaf ears. It's like arguing with religion. You can't win. So you just close it and call it a day.
I do understand the subjectivists' take. It's easier to tell yourself that you prefer this or that device because it's really good despite the measurements, or because those measurements are somehow invalidated by your room, or by the "synergy" of your gear, or by your own hearing, than it is to admit that you prefer it simply because its distortion pattern just happens to sound pleasing to you. We all tend to defend and to justify our choices. But if you do it in the wrong community, then you can't expect to be tolerated for too long.
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But they weren't kind. They retorted with the usual insulting language.
But this sort of discussion is not new.
Possibly. When I read the thread there was mention of some cleaning having taken place, so I may have missed that part.
But then, the very fact that the moderators needed to perform said cleaning is reason enough to close it, if the people involved don't appear to have got the message. Especially if it's not a new thing.
After all, that forum has a very specific set of rules, which is unlike that of other audio forums. Take it or leave it. If you go on an off-roading forum and start professing that 4x4 is unnecessary, because you personally are perfectly fine with 4x2 and you love it, you may be tolerated for a short while, but I bet you'd be kicked out pretty soon if you kept at it.
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I leave it. It's a one track forum. And very rude. Audio is about listening. These guys are a measurements circle Jerk. It doesn't get you anywhere if everything sounds the same except derisively stated "Golden Ears". The reality is that the whole point of the hobby has always been about finding value in the sound. It doesn't matter if the sound comes from circuit design or distortion characteristics. What matters is your taste, audible discernment and the joy in it. The magic lies in the mystery. Measurements have always existed. But they are irrelevant.
The other distasteful element is the chorus of minions all repeating the same self satisfied phrases. It's grotesque and pathetic. Every thread is the same. "This piece on kind loan...followed by the same obnoxious all- knowing chuckling...
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And by the way. Measurement is not science. I have a scale in my bathroom. It measures my weight. I have some spoons in my kitchen. They measure volume for recipes. Science takes measurements as a means to understanding. If we took measurements and applied them to predicting listening preferences, that might be called science. Measuring known variables with a bought machine does not make you a scientist.
You know what excites me? A product that comes out, is broadly affordable, and measurements don't matter. Like the Fiio Warmer DAC. People want what they want and Fiio gave it to them. People love a sound that invites them to enjoy the music they love. And it's affordable. That is an achievement.
For me, audio is an interest and a hobby. Those on ASR may approach the hobby differently than me and that's fine.
I've owned and enjoyed older CJ gear with its tubey character and Threshold gear with its neutral tonality. I've settled on Pass Labs for my pre and power as they're to my liking. I infuse some tube characteristics into the chain with my tube phono pre and the FiiO Warmer DAC. What I mentioned above about the FiiO could apply to my whole setup, "it may not be 100% accurate but it's enjoyable..." and that's what I care most about.
My $0.02.
I've owned and enjoyed older CJ gear with its tubey character and Threshold gear with its neutral tonality. I've settled on Pass Labs for my pre and power as they're to my liking. I infuse some tube characteristics into the chain with my tube phono pre and the FiiO Warmer DAC. What I mentioned above about the FiiO could apply to my whole setup, "it may not be 100% accurate but it's enjoyable..." and that's what I care most about.
My $0.02.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying the use of a measurement machine. What I don't like is the constant drone that people are deluding themselves about what they like and what they can hear. And that talented designers like Nelson Pass, or the good folks at Audio Research and the many other innovators in the field are all a bunch of snake oil salespeople.
Starting an audio company is an incredibly courageous task. You have to have a talent for design and you take a lot of risk. Most of these companies ride on a shoestring. Every year they can get stronger, survive, or go bankrupt. It has to be a labor of love. I have heard a lot of it and it has broadened my view of what is possible. These guys are heroes in my book.
Starting an audio company is an incredibly courageous task. You have to have a talent for design and you take a lot of risk. Most of these companies ride on a shoestring. Every year they can get stronger, survive, or go bankrupt. It has to be a labor of love. I have heard a lot of it and it has broadened my view of what is possible. These guys are heroes in my book.
I have a Tubemagic D1 and it really shined once I installed some Sparkos SS3602 op amps. It has been replaced in my main system, but I keep it around for testing as it can be used as a preamp.
Man, you really are dead set against them. It's just a forum with a very specific object and a very specific set of rules. If you're not interested in that object and don't like those rules, just don't go there. No need to hate them for being something you don't like, or for having rules you don't agree with.
Knowing what to measure and how in that particular realm isn't easy. If you gave me the same equipment I would get completely different results, because there are dozens of ways in which you can mess up if you don't know what you're doing. Besides, they do interpret the results. And if you want to understand more about what those measurements mean and what they actually indicate, they will always be happy to help you with that. As long as you don't step on their toes, that is.
You're free to hate them all you want, but that doesn't invalidate their work.
Good for you. There's nothing wrong with that.
Conversely, what excites me is knowing that what I'm hearing is as close as possible to what the original was supposed to sound like, and to what the sound engineer intended me to hear. Of course, I know it will never be 100% accurate due to various factors like my room, my speakers, etc., but at least I want to know I'm doing all I can to be as close as I can. ASR helps me achieve that goal.
Are they rude? Yes, sometimes. I've had my share of insults from them. But I just swallowed it, learned what I wanted to learn, and moved on.
If you want to get closer to the artists intent, SINAD will not get you there. You are better off taking piano lessons. And also consider that there intent is not a two dimensional photograph. It's multi-dimensional. Every angle, distance and even your mood each day presents different possibilities in the creative act of perception and enjoyment. SINAD plays no part in that dynamic. SINAD is a false paradigm. It's an illusion.
I know. But the SINAD is just one of the parameters they measure and discuss. And while the SINAD may be irrelevant (as long as it's above a certain threshold), the others aren't.
If I eat something cooked by Gordon Ramsey, I don't want the waiter to add ketchup to it. Even if ketchup made it taste better, more pleasant, even if I loved the taste of ketchup in general, I still wouldn't want the waiter to add it. I want to taste exactly what Gordon made. If Gordon thought ketchup was necessary, he would add it himself. If he doesn't, then I don't want it.
To me, the recording is Gordon's food, and the DAC is the waiter. ASR tells me which DACs add the least ketchup to the food.
You can argue that my taste buds are different from Gordon's, so I would never feel on my tongue exactly what he is feeling, which of course is true, but that's not the point. You can argue that my fork alters the taste if it's not exactly the same fork that Gordon is eating with. But that's not the point either. I want to taste what Gordon intended (as far as it's reasonably possible), not what the waiter thinks I might enjoy more. I can't do anything about the taste buds or the fork, but that doesn't mean I should give up completely and not do anything about the ketchup if I can.
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