What's the point of a Pre-Amp?

mufster

Well-Known Member
Firstly, I get that it's said to be better to have seperate pre-amp and power amp, but I can only think that is applicable with both units from the same manufacturer. The power amp is the last line. It's where the sound comes from and what your speakers are connected to. So if you have a Yamaha power amp and a Sony pre-amp then does it matter whether the pre-amp is Sony, Marantz, Pioneer etc as the sound will be all Yamaha's. Please correct me because I don't see the point in having one make of pre-amp and one make of power amp.
 
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Preamplifiers impart more sonic character than any other single upstream component in most systems.

Those of us who have been enjoying modular systems(separates) for decades have experienced this many times over.

BTW, please explain why you feel brand name is of any importance at all with regard to performance or compatibility in any given system.
 
Firstly, I get that it's said to be better to have seperate pre-amp and power amp, but I can only think that is applicable with both units from the same manufacturer. The power amp is the last line. It's where the sound comes from and what your speakers are connected to. So if you have a Yamaha power amp and a Sony pre-amp then does it matter whether the pre-amp is Sony, Marantz, Pioneer etc as the sound will be all Yamaha's. Please correct me because I don't see the point in having one make of pre-amp and one make of power amp.

This is a very interesting topic! I think there are advantages and also possible disadvantages to having a pre-amp/amp vs an integrated. Some time ago I discovered that my choice of pre-amp can completely change the sound of my system, even with the same amp in each configuration. I had been running one of my old H/K receiver as a pre-amp with an NAD C272 for some time, but wanted to find a pre with some additional features (an integrated DAC, for instance). I happened to find a used Rotel unit for a good price and decided to give it a shot, and the improvement in the sound really surprised me! The H/K is a great unit on it's own, but for some reason the Rotel seemed to match up beautifully with the NAD. Having this kind of flexibility in terms of system setup can be a blessing, but the potential downside is the possibility of a less than optimal match-up. Fortunately I was able to find the right combination, despite myself!
 
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It's not necessarily better to have a pre/power amp combo, but it gives you more flexibility. There are integrated amplifiers that are as good and better than separates, there are also those that have a good preamp section but a weak main amp, or a really good and powerful main amp and a bad preamp section. Same goes for separates, but here you can, well, separate them.

Agree, in the preamp/power amp combo, the preamp affects the sonic character (tonal balance, clarity etc.) and the power amp determines how well the speakers are driven (power, control, speed etc.
Example: I had a Denon pre/power amp combo UPT-250 and UPO-250. The power amp in this combo is quite good for what it is (small footprint, 50 WPC, clean, fairly neutral), but the preamp produced a veiled, muffled sound, basically what you'd expect from a Denon mini system. Same power amp with a different preamp drives most speakers with authority you would not expect from something the size of a shoebox.

Another application is if you have a small integrated amp or receiver you like the sound of, which on its own can't drive big speakers but has pre out jacks (like many Kenwood and Marantz amps from the 1970s, or NAD 3020) - then you just connect a power amp and use your integrated as a pre. You get the nice Marantz sound and a 100 WPC amplification for much less than you'd have to pay for 100 WPC 70s Marantz.

Another advantage is separate power supplies for preamp and power amp, which does improve the operation of both components, although some integrateds also have that.

Obvious disadvantages are: you have two boxes instead of one (space) and you need an IC cable to connect them (possible quality loss, usually not a significant loss though). As far as mismatches are concerned, mismatch between pre and power amp is not that common, it is usually a mismatch between power amp and speakers (power, speed), preamp and speakers (sonic signatures) or preamp and your ears (sonic signature).
 
Pre-amps mostly have no place in a modern stereo. As long as you're not using a turntable (or even reel to reel cassettes!) you do not need it. As a source-selector it has a use, but in terms of sound quality, it can only be negative. The more you add to the chain, the more the sound will be degraded. Modern sources (CD players, computers, phones, etc) output a strong enough signal to be connected directly to a power amp.

Many vintage integrated amplifiers (and I suppose all modern ones) lack a pre-amp altogether, and only consist of a source selector, RIAA amp (for the phono input, if there is one), and a power amp. The tone controls are built into the power amp in these cases.
 
On many integrated amps, the "preamp" is just a switch that lets you choose between CD, Tuner, Aux ... nothing more than that. Of course, you really *do* need a phono preamp.

There have even been a few 'passive preamps' on the market that are basically just a volume control (passive) and a selector switch. Some weren't cheap, as well.

So basically, that's what you need. A selector switch for anything line level, plus a real actual amplifying (and equalising) preamp for phono.
 
Pre-amps mostly have no place in a modern stereo. As long as you're not using a turntable (or even reel to reel cassettes!) you do not need it. As a source-selector it has a use, but in terms of sound quality, it can only be negative. The more you add to the chain, the more the sound will be degraded. Modern sources (CD players, computers, phones, etc) output a strong enough signal to be connected directly to a power amp.

Many vintage integrated amplifiers (and I suppose all modern ones) lack a pre-amp altogether, and only consist of a source selector, RIAA amp (for the phono input, if there is one), and a power amp. The tone controls are built into the power amp in these cases.
While there may be some very specific combinations of gear where this is true, it is hardly true as a blanket statement.

Different power amplifiers have different input voltage requirements. There is no magic. If your source doesn't have a high enough output(many don't, vintage or modern), a gain stage between it and the amplifier will be necessary to drive the amplifier to full power.
 
There are some instances where an active preamp is a better choice than a passive switchbox with a volume control. One of the functions of an active line stage is to act as an impedance buffer, providing a high (easy-to-drive) input impedance to the source components and a low output impedance to drive highly-capacitive interconnects or power amps with low input impedance or sensitivity. If the amp has a low input impedance, some components (especially those with tubed output stages) might have difficulty driving it and distort. If the amp's sensitivity is low, the source components might not be able to drive it to full rated power. The high output impedance of a passive preamp's volume pot can also interact with interconnect capacitance and roll off a system's high frequencies. Using an active preamp with voltage gain in its line stage bypasses all of these problems.

For what it's worth, the idea of a passive preamp is not new. The Dynaco SCA-35 integrated amp from the early 1960s had a passive line stage complete with losser-type tone controls. Designer Ed Laurent compensated for the attenuation of the volume, balance, and tone controls by increasng the voltage gain of the power amp stage. The phono preamp stage was active, using a similar design to the Dynaco PAS.
 
BTW, please explain why you feel brand name is of any importance at all with regard to performance or compatibility in any given system.

Brand name was more to emphasize the sound signature of a given amp. Yamaha, Marantz = smooth. Sony, Pioneer are less so. In most cases.

Also, given the responses so far. Thanks. But I am still vexed. Lets look at a Yamaha MX-1000 power amp. Yamaha are smooth sounding. If I use a bright sounding pre-amp, lets say a Sony pre-amp and connect it to a Yamaha MX-1000, then surely the sound coming out will be the sound of the Yamaha not the Sony. I mean, the Sony passes the sound to the Yamaha and the Yamaha then sends the sound out to the speakers. So surely it has to be the Yamaha's sound.


Another application is if you have a small integrated amp or receiver you like the sound of, which on its own can't drive big speakers but has pre out jacks (like many Kenwood and Marantz amps from the 1970s, or NAD 3020) - then you just connect a power amp and use your integrated as a pre. You get the nice Marantz sound and a 100 WPC amplification for much less than you'd have to pay for 100 WPC 70s Marantz.

Wouldn't the power amp, if it was a different brand change the sound? Surely the Marantz sound would be altered by the power amp. The power amp doesn't just pass the sound through unadjusted does it?

I'm missing it entirely, I know!

My thoughts are that no matter what pre-amp I use, the sound will be the sound of the power amp.

Please help me understand.
 
My thoughts are that no matter what pre-amp I use, the sound will be the sound of the power amp.
Among most good power amps the audible differences would tend to be attributed more to how they react/handle a given speaker load. In most typical home systems, the power amp will generally be the MOST transparent component in the chain.

Consider that in theory, the amplifier in it's perfect state equals a straight wire with gain, it doesn't add anything to, or take anything away from the input waveform. This is the target the amplifier designer strives to hit.
 
With pretty much any decent power amp, they perform one function... to amplify whatever signal is provided to them. Any coloration of the sound in the source/preamp stage is magnified by the amplifier, therefore, the more critical stages are the source/preamp... if an amplifier is creating that much coloration of the input signal, you need to choose a better/different amp...
 
Thanks guys. I think I get it now. I thought the power amp has it's own sound signature and in fact it doesn't. Adding a power amp will extend the power rating of an existing amp with pre out or will provide the power for the pre-amp. I get it. At bloomin last! I don't own a power amp. I did own a Yamaha MX-1000 but sold it about a year ago. Never used it. Think I missed a trick there. Oh well.

Thank you so much.
 
I thought the power amp has it's own sound signature and in fact it doesn't
Oh, indeed many do. It is however on a scale of a much smaller magnitude than any other part of the chain, probably even many ears.
 
As noted above, preamps are next to unneeded today, due to the high level output of most components which can drive power amplifiers directly. Historically, preamps were "control" amplifiers, which not only amplified phono signals and allowed source selection, but also held considerable signal processing capability: tone controls, loudness and other contour sound shapers, balance and more. As signal processors they reached their zenith in the mid to late 70s with models like the Sony TA-E8450 and models from Soundcraftsmen, SAE, Carver/Phase Linear and the like offering enormous signal processing (even huge graphic or parametric equalizers, noise reduction, dynamic expansion) to try to make up for the limitations of the recording technologies of the time. Of course, all that extra circuitry added colorations and noise of its own. The trick was to give as much flexibility as possible without dirtying the underling signal too much.

But of course, technology improved. The late 70s / early 80s marked the advent of the bare-bones preamp - first by boutique manufacturers and then by the Japanese mid-fi producers; manufacturers cut out tone controls and minimized circuit paths once it was realized that EVERY component changes the signal. Up until then, it was widely held that passive components (resistors, capacitors, inductors) had no intrinsic sounds of their own. We now know that idea is completely wrong. Perhaps the death-knell for the full featured preamp was the advent of the high signal level CD and the decline of the low-level phono source. One could run CD directly to power amp, ensuring that the "perfect sound forever" of the CD was unadulterated.

With the resurgence of vinyl (at least among people of Audiokarma and the like,) there is again a need for low level amplification, but the current generation of phono preamps is very quiet, very true, and requires minimal, if any, post-signal processing - provided you have a good signal. Sadly, the popular recording industry often squanders the advantages that current technology offers (the "loudness wars") and there is again interest in signal post-processing. Check out the higher-end used dbx companders from 20-30 years ago - today, 4bx units regularly go for over $400 and 5bx units routinely sell for $700-1000 - as much as or more than when they were new. For those with purely digital interests, there are any number of computer based signal-processing suites which offer far greater signal manipulation - but done in the digital domain, where the introduction of noise and unexpected anomalies can be controlled/minimized.

Again, as noted in previous posts, changing a preamp can make a marked difference in the final sound coming from the speakers. I disagree, however, that the power amp adds the least to the signal. It SHOULD be neutral, but if you listen to lots of power amps, they all (especially vintage ones) sound different too!
 
Again, as noted in previous posts, changing a preamp can make a marked difference in the final sound coming from the speakers. I disagree, however, that the power amp adds the least to the signal. It SHOULD be neutral, but if you listen to lots of power amps, they all (especially vintage ones) sound different too!

In most cases, the power amp adds the least amount of coloration to the signal; however, most home amps, especially back in the 70's were "voiced" to a "house" or "signature" sound by the manufacturer.

The other thing that has been overlooked in this thread, is that every component (with the exception of a truly passive preamp) has an active preamplification stage... tuners receive signal and amplify it to line level, cdps read digital signal, convert it to analogue and then amplify it to line level, modern DACs frequently include a headphone amp and variable output, and even stand-alone power amplifiers have a preamp/driver stage.
 
Some amps are high input impedance 200k (tubes mostly) and some are low input inpendance 35k (SS mainly ). Some sources can drive both, some not so much.... Even some older preamps I know of do not play well with low impedance SS amps.

My SS preamp can drive a 600ohm load.... My tube preamp can not drive a 40k ohm load without a modification. The high level input impedance is 200k for my SS preamp and 300k or more for my tube preamp.

Sources are a mix too with what they can drive.

So your mileage may vary.... Look at the coupling cap value and figure out the 3db points based on the load impedance. You might end up with surprise. You can modify some values if needed. Newer units all seem to be setup for driving lower load impedances.

But we are talking vintage which does include a wide range.

I would not assume all sources will play well directly to all amps without some consideration of input impedance.

Jk
 
Some amps are high input impedance 200k (tubes mostly) and some are low input inpendance 35k (SS mainly ). Some sources can drive both, some not so much.... Even some older preamps I know of do not play well with low impedance SS amps.

My SS preamp can drive a 600ohm load.... My tube preamp can not drive a 40k ohm load without a modification. The high level input impedance is 200k for my SS preamp and 300k or more for my tube preamp.

Sources are a mix too with what they can drive.

So your mileage may vary.... Look at the coupling cap value and figure out the 3db points based on the load impedance. You might end up with surprise. You can modify some values if needed. Newer units all seem to be setup for driving lower load impedances.

But we are talking vintage which does include a wide range.

I would not assume all sources will play well directly to all amps without some consideration of input impedance.

Jk

Yes, fair point. I guess what you also have to watch for is that both preamp and power amp have a series decoupling cap, so if they are (say) 10uF, effective capacitance is 5uF. But the resistances are in series too, and by my calculator, you would need a combined resistance of 1.6k to get a 20Hz -3dB point, which is very low.
 
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