No Regrets
Active Member
I was wondering if anyone out there has ever had the opportunity to hear both and could comment on how they differ in sound, etc.
Bozak Concert Grands vs. Wharfedale W90's
- Thread starter No Regrets
- Start date
I haven't, but send me which ever pair you don't like.
I would guess that the Bozaks would best the Warfedales, but only in a big room with a fair amount of distance between speaker and listener. Closer or smaller, the Warfedales might do better.
And, of course, you'd want a sympathetic amp.
I would guess that the Bozaks would best the Warfedales, but only in a big room with a fair amount of distance between speaker and listener. Closer or smaller, the Warfedales might do better.
And, of course, you'd want a sympathetic amp.
Brian
An Old Geezer
Not quite up that rung in the ladder but, one step down. I have the Symphony and W70s. No contest. As good as the W70s are, they just not up to competing against the Symphonys. The W70s do very well in competition with the Bozak 302a set that I have. I honestly can not say that if I had to keep only one which it would be based poorly on the sound.
I suspect a fairer competition for the W90 would be the Symphony but still suspect it would not quite be up to besting the Symphonys. However, the speakers were designed for different environments and aural preferences so the W90s may be better in apartments where rooms are smaller than the typical house and spl is more limited. I draw this conclusion partly b/c the Wharfedales can go into lower spls region with less collapsing of the sound. At higher spls, the Bozaks are so effortless where the Wharfedales like so many speakers start to sound strained. A bit hard to explain but think of a 4-cyl and 6-cyl version of the same car on a highway. The 4-cyl keeps up but seems strained though it is not near its maximum abillity where the 6-cyl seems to almost be loafing along.
Assuming from the question that you may have a chance to pick up either, I'd suggest listening to each and let your ears control your heart. Also, consider the current equipment you have to mate to them and your upgrade plans as these speakers will probably lead you off into different directions.
I suspect a fairer competition for the W90 would be the Symphony but still suspect it would not quite be up to besting the Symphonys. However, the speakers were designed for different environments and aural preferences so the W90s may be better in apartments where rooms are smaller than the typical house and spl is more limited. I draw this conclusion partly b/c the Wharfedales can go into lower spls region with less collapsing of the sound. At higher spls, the Bozaks are so effortless where the Wharfedales like so many speakers start to sound strained. A bit hard to explain but think of a 4-cyl and 6-cyl version of the same car on a highway. The 4-cyl keeps up but seems strained though it is not near its maximum abillity where the 6-cyl seems to almost be loafing along.
Assuming from the question that you may have a chance to pick up either, I'd suggest listening to each and let your ears control your heart. Also, consider the current equipment you have to mate to them and your upgrade plans as these speakers will probably lead you off into different directions.
No Regrets
Active Member
Hello and thank you for the replies. I did try earlier to post a message and now that I look, for some reason it didn't work....so forgive me if this posts twice.
I am relatively new to the vintage speaker arena. A while back I picked up a pair of Wharfedale W25's to try in a bedroom system and was amazed at how well they did with vocals, acoustic jazz, cello sonatas and the like. In fact, I liked them so much that I have been trying to purchase some W90's from a gentleman, but it has temporalily delayed on the sellers end due to a family crisis. I still want to buy his, but I think I've been bitten by the vintage bug because I still keep looking for more great speakers.
I came across a mint pair of Bozak Concert Grands that look interesting to me, but because of their location, I am unable to hear them and therefore enlisting your help.
So if I understand correctly, the Wharfedales excell at working in smaller rooms at lower spl's, where as the Bozaks need a larger room to breath, so to speak and excell at reproducing larger works at life like volume levels.
I know the Wharfedales have been very easy to drive with my various Pilot amps of 15watts. Are the Bozaks more power hungry?
Are the Bozaks as convincing on vocals, cellos, and piano as the Wharfedales are?
Are the Bozaks considered to be more of a West coast sound or more like the Wharfedales but more at ease with dynamic crescendos and the like?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
I am relatively new to the vintage speaker arena. A while back I picked up a pair of Wharfedale W25's to try in a bedroom system and was amazed at how well they did with vocals, acoustic jazz, cello sonatas and the like. In fact, I liked them so much that I have been trying to purchase some W90's from a gentleman, but it has temporalily delayed on the sellers end due to a family crisis. I still want to buy his, but I think I've been bitten by the vintage bug because I still keep looking for more great speakers.
I came across a mint pair of Bozak Concert Grands that look interesting to me, but because of their location, I am unable to hear them and therefore enlisting your help.
So if I understand correctly, the Wharfedales excell at working in smaller rooms at lower spl's, where as the Bozaks need a larger room to breath, so to speak and excell at reproducing larger works at life like volume levels.
I know the Wharfedales have been very easy to drive with my various Pilot amps of 15watts. Are the Bozaks more power hungry?
Are the Bozaks as convincing on vocals, cellos, and piano as the Wharfedales are?
Are the Bozaks considered to be more of a West coast sound or more like the Wharfedales but more at ease with dynamic crescendos and the like?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
NealinNevada
THE Bozak Museum of NV
I have listened to many speakers over the last half century, and I actually only remember a couple of them...The CG's are at the top of "I remember" list. I heard them about 40 years ago in the Mark Twain mansion in Hartford, CT (a presentation done by Rudy Bozak) and the sound was both accurate and building filling (not room, but building). The bass will punch your gut and dead accurate. I have Symphony's and B-312's and I'd give my left :tears::tears: to have a set of CG's. The word "effortless" comes to mind when I think of Bozak's, particularly the CG's and Symphony's. I have the Symphony's in a room with 20 foot ceilings and I would agree, the bigger the room the better for the big Bozak's.
The Bozak's will run on the 15W amp, but I don't think they will demonstrate their potential without more reserve power to handle peaks. I use a rule of thumb...if the speaker requires "x" watts of input to give me the SPL I prefer, I want a minimum of 100 times that as potential output from my amp. I drive my Symphony's with a Pioneer SA-9900 which puts out 130+ watts per channel RMS...
The Bozak's, to my ears, are neither a east coast, nor west coast sound. They are huge in size and yet, they seem to disappear in the room. If I had to choose east or west, I'd say something like an east coast sound but not as mellow (compared to my EPI 200's as an east coast example) or as forward as my JBl L-100's (as a west coast example).
The Bozak's will run on the 15W amp, but I don't think they will demonstrate their potential without more reserve power to handle peaks. I use a rule of thumb...if the speaker requires "x" watts of input to give me the SPL I prefer, I want a minimum of 100 times that as potential output from my amp. I drive my Symphony's with a Pioneer SA-9900 which puts out 130+ watts per channel RMS...
The Bozak's, to my ears, are neither a east coast, nor west coast sound. They are huge in size and yet, they seem to disappear in the room. If I had to choose east or west, I'd say something like an east coast sound but not as mellow (compared to my EPI 200's as an east coast example) or as forward as my JBl L-100's (as a west coast example).
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Brian
An Old Geezer
The CG will require a larger amp than 15 watts. I am running my Symphonys with a 20 watt amp at the moment and while it is not opening them up like either my McIntosh or Philips amp, at low levels set to keep the amp from clipping on peaks, it does okay. It is the minimum recommended for the Symphony.
The CG has 4 12" woofers and will go down deep. Also has 8 tweeters and hence will suck up some power. For most listeners I'd estimate 100 watts would be a good balance between average listening levels and keeping it from clipping on peaks.
You are correct in the room sizes. The W90s have 2 12" woofers so and can live nicely in a room of about the same size as the for the Symphonys. The CG need more space to get the best from them. You can tune a smaller room to accomodate them but at best it is not optimal. This is not to say they will sound poorly but just a limitation on geting the best from them.
The Bozaks are from New England and if I were to place a geographic designation, something between what is termed the British sound that Wharfedale is an example of and the New England sound say of the better KLHs. It actually predates the acoustic suspension speaker that became known as the NE sound but is not too far off as Rudy was an accomplished musician and frequented both New York and Boston symphonies so it was almost a given what he would voice to would be from that corridor as that was what he was hearing. I've know a number of Bozak owners who also owned Wharfedales in secondary systems.
Considering the size and weight if the CGs are within pickup range it would be a major factor for me in making a decision b/c trying to find a 2nd pair within a resonable distance does nto happen too often unless you hapen to be in the Boston to New York corridor where they seem more plentiful but still very rare.
Another factor to consider is how far you want to go with your setup. The CG came in 2 versions. One uses a single amp per channel while the second had a bi-amp crossover and used an active crossover between the preamp and a pair of stereo amps. The sound improvement is noticable with the bi-amp version as can be expected and a number of persons who own the single amp version do convert them. Also, there is an active Bozak group with a member who offers improved crossovers and the more than a few members are almost geeks so there is an extensive knowledge base and information source for the Bozaks while since the Wharfedale company was devistated by a fire some years ago almost none of the historical information is any longer available.
The CG has 4 12" woofers and will go down deep. Also has 8 tweeters and hence will suck up some power. For most listeners I'd estimate 100 watts would be a good balance between average listening levels and keeping it from clipping on peaks.
You are correct in the room sizes. The W90s have 2 12" woofers so and can live nicely in a room of about the same size as the for the Symphonys. The CG need more space to get the best from them. You can tune a smaller room to accomodate them but at best it is not optimal. This is not to say they will sound poorly but just a limitation on geting the best from them.
The Bozaks are from New England and if I were to place a geographic designation, something between what is termed the British sound that Wharfedale is an example of and the New England sound say of the better KLHs. It actually predates the acoustic suspension speaker that became known as the NE sound but is not too far off as Rudy was an accomplished musician and frequented both New York and Boston symphonies so it was almost a given what he would voice to would be from that corridor as that was what he was hearing. I've know a number of Bozak owners who also owned Wharfedales in secondary systems.
Considering the size and weight if the CGs are within pickup range it would be a major factor for me in making a decision b/c trying to find a 2nd pair within a resonable distance does nto happen too often unless you hapen to be in the Boston to New York corridor where they seem more plentiful but still very rare.
Another factor to consider is how far you want to go with your setup. The CG came in 2 versions. One uses a single amp per channel while the second had a bi-amp crossover and used an active crossover between the preamp and a pair of stereo amps. The sound improvement is noticable with the bi-amp version as can be expected and a number of persons who own the single amp version do convert them. Also, there is an active Bozak group with a member who offers improved crossovers and the more than a few members are almost geeks so there is an extensive knowledge base and information source for the Bozaks while since the Wharfedale company was devistated by a fire some years ago almost none of the historical information is any longer available.
I didn't know Warfedale had had a fire that destroyed many of their records, but Gilbert Briggs, the founder, was an active and accomplished writer on audio topics, producing a series of very fine small books on audio and speakers and so on back in the late 50s and early mid 60s. He used his own designs as examples of how speakers work, so fortunately there is a fair amount of information about them available in those books. I think the W 90s are later than the books I own, and maybe even than any of his books, but if you come across any of them, they are still remarkably worth reading. And enjoyable as well as informative.
How deep will a CG go? I assumed they were like a lot of other older speakers that wouldn't really stretch.
No Regrets
Active Member
Thank you again for the replies. Wow, the Bozaks sure do sound interesting. It sounds like they could give my Dunlavy SCIV's a run for the money. Unfortunately, I have missed this opportunity for the Concert Grands. They were asking $2400 plus I would have to pay to have them crated and shipped from California. He also had them where I could run them either biamped or single amped. I was thinking this was a little high and would have more time to research them, but I guess I was wrong.
Another question if you don't mind. I understand that some of the Concert Grands have the tweeters mounted horizontally and some are vertically mounted. Are there any preferences for one or the other?
Any thing else I should keep in mind or look for in regards to these or the symphonies as well?
And thank you for telling me about the amplifier requirements as well. My biggest amp uses single ended triode 845's giving me roughly 35 watts rms with 70 watt peaks.
Another question if you don't mind. I understand that some of the Concert Grands have the tweeters mounted horizontally and some are vertically mounted. Are there any preferences for one or the other?
Any thing else I should keep in mind or look for in regards to these or the symphonies as well?
And thank you for telling me about the amplifier requirements as well. My biggest amp uses single ended triode 845's giving me roughly 35 watts rms with 70 watt peaks.
I wouldn't beat myself up about it -- shipping a speaker as big as Concert Grands is expensive, and not without risk, and the price before shipping was not exactly negligeable. Looking at it from the other side -- for most people, speakers that size are a liability, and they will sell cheap simply to get someone to take them away. So keep an eye out, and you may find some. And remember that Bozak sold cabinets and drivers to let people add on as they could afford it, so sometimes you may find the cabinets with only some of the drivers, and these can be a good deal also.
As to the horizontal or vertical orientation, I think it depends your expected pattern of use -- each orientation creates very narrow dispersion in the plane of the tweeters and wide dispersion in the perpendicular orientation. So the question is do you move sideways in the room or up and down (seated and standing)? What shape your room has, and how high the ceilings are, also would have an effect on the overall balance.
The Bozak user group might have more concrete information.
As to the horizontal or vertical orientation, I think it depends your expected pattern of use -- each orientation creates very narrow dispersion in the plane of the tweeters and wide dispersion in the perpendicular orientation. So the question is do you move sideways in the room or up and down (seated and standing)? What shape your room has, and how high the ceilings are, also would have an effect on the overall balance.
The Bozak user group might have more concrete information.
No Regrets
Active Member
The room I had in mind is about 12ft by 16ft with 81/2 foot ceilings. Do you think this room would be too small for these speakers?
I listen seated in the sweet spot.....so should I look for the horizontal or vertical tweeters?
What kind of prices do you think would be fair for Concert Grands in mint condition?
Thank you for telling me of the Bozak Yahoo Group. I have joined, but must admit I find myself fumbling around with it. It doesn't seem as intuitive as this site or others for that matter.
Thanks to all for your willingness to help me.
That seems a very small room to fit CGs into -- are you sure you will fit also? But if that is the size of your room, you have a lot more flexibility than I was assuming. In a room that size, even the Bozaks with a single woofer would give you decent bass, so suddenly the range you should look at expands, and speakers in the 300 and 400 series, which are much more common and much cheaper, might please you mightily (as well as leaving room for a coffe table and a sofa). And they can be driver easily with your amps.
With Bozaks, the more woofers you have, the deeper the bass and the higher the power handling, so if a two woofer version showed up, so much the better. I would look for a three way before going for extra woofers though -- I don't think the two ways are really satisfactory except as a way station on the way to greater things.
I like the classic Bozaks best, but don't overlook the LS series -- there is a time aligned three way with a ported aluminum 8 inch woofer, the 300, if I recall correctly, that is a remarkable speaker.
Some purists sneer at the later Bozaks, but give them a listen -- some do have flimsy cabinets but others are very sound speakers.
With Bozaks, the more woofers you have, the deeper the bass and the higher the power handling, so if a two woofer version showed up, so much the better. I would look for a three way before going for extra woofers though -- I don't think the two ways are really satisfactory except as a way station on the way to greater things.
I like the classic Bozaks best, but don't overlook the LS series -- there is a time aligned three way with a ported aluminum 8 inch woofer, the 300, if I recall correctly, that is a remarkable speaker.
Some purists sneer at the later Bozaks, but give them a listen -- some do have flimsy cabinets but others are very sound speakers.
Hmm -- I was more thinking of the 301 or 302 which was a single 12 inch woofer with either a pair of tweeters or the pair of tweeters and a 6 inch or so midrange. They were around a yard by a yard, and maybe two feet deep.
I'd forgotten that the 300 range went farther up.
But that reminds me that there are old Bozaks that are bookshelf size but use the standard 12 inch woofer (more or less). They simply don't sound as good to me -- too small enclosure and too much damping. But they might be a good source of drivers.
The smaller Bozaks that use the neoprene damped aluminum 8 or 6/61/2 inch woofers are often very nice, also.
I'd forgotten that the 300 range went farther up.
But that reminds me that there are old Bozaks that are bookshelf size but use the standard 12 inch woofer (more or less). They simply don't sound as good to me -- too small enclosure and too much damping. But they might be a good source of drivers.
The smaller Bozaks that use the neoprene damped aluminum 8 or 6/61/2 inch woofers are often very nice, also.
sheltie dave
Addicted Member
No Regrets, there is a pair of mint Concert Grands in St. Louis on CL for $1500. They were part of a dentist's estate and were purchased last weekend, now being flipped. I was in Indiana and missed these(gladly, for they were $$$,) but they may be worthy of consideration.
No Regrets
Active Member
I was a little concerned that the room may be too small with all of those big woofers as well. Currently I am using a pair of Dunlavy SCIV's in there along the long wall. They have two 10" woofers each in a sealed enclosure and work well. However, one 10" is on top and the other on the bottom and maybe they cancell out some of the waves and reflections off the ceiling and floor. Unfortunately, even though I have bigger rooms in the house, my wife has only given me permission to have large speakers in this particular room.
I appreciate your help and advice.
No Regrets
Active Member
Thank you for the heads up on these. I live about 9 hours away. Maybe renting a cargo van and going for a roadtrip would be fun!
theebadone
Super Member
Mike was at that estate sale last saturday, (surprise, surprise) lol. I was told they are in excellent shape and sold for 1,200.00 last weekend
Gang-Twanger
Resident Wharfedaliophool
I love the Bozaks AND the Wharfedales. I grew up in New Britain, CT, and I've always wanted a pair of either the Symphonies OR the Concert Grands (the problem is, I don't really have a room big enough to play them (Well, not the Concert Grand's anyway).
**EDIT* 8/30/12 - I now have a recapped/refurbished pair of original, ported W90's (with 6 alnico drivers per cab, including 2 of the alnico Super 3 tweeters... Pics on my profile... Click on "Albums"), and I believe No Regrets found a similar all-alnico pair shortly-after posting this thread. Fantastic speaker, the W90 is. Maybe the best I've ever heard at lower volumes... Incredible imaging, separation, and dynamics, and the best I've heard for old recordings like John Mayall's Bluesbreakers w/ Clapton doing "Hideaway" or other '60's music, or older mono stuff from the '50's and earlier. No matter what goes in, beautiful sound always comes out (I've never heard old Aretha Franklin stuff sound so-good). Just a velvety-smooth, warm, incredibly-musical, big-sounding speaker. Just the right amount of weight. I found that I definitely-prefer the Super 3 cone-tweeter to the purple, mylar dome-tweeter (with the ceramic magnet) that came later. The purple dome is an excellent tweeter, but the alnico Super 3 is something really-special. More of a mid-woofer/tweeter in one. With the combination of two Super 3's and the 2 mid-woofers they also had in each one of those cabs, the mids and highs are just an absolute delight. Smooth and airy yet totally-coherent and seamless. And just incredibly-lifelike. Laid-back, yet accurate bass (only what's needed... No overblown, over-sized bass, and no UNDER-sized bass either). Excellent upper-bass response. Smooth, yet accurate (No overhang or boom). And these things get deep. I was surprised at how good the bass-response is on these things. Unlike the ported, 2-way W60, that big low-bass is there with the W90's. I'm willing to bet that the response is flat from about 30hz all the way on up to 16khz where the tweeters start rolling off (and the highs sound very-natural... Not rolled-off, just smooth, open, and airy). When it comes to low-to-moderate-volume listening, I imagine the W90's could take down an awful lot of modern high-end speakers (especially any music with horns. Very, very-underrated.**
At the moment I have a pair of Wharfedale W60E's in a room that's about the same size as the one the OP mentioned. These things (W60E's) are great for late '60's to early '70's jazz, jazz-funk, and classic rock. Especially those early to mid '80's CD's that are super-quiet - You turn them up and they just blossom. Eumir Deodato's first two albums sound simply-amazing. I've never been so happy with my speakers before. Perfectly-designed for the music I listen to (The Allman Brothers are meant to be heard through Wharfedales. I think the W60E's may be a touch more-modern-sounding than the earlier Wharfedales (I think mine are from the late '60's). I'm really feeling a lot of love for these things, and the cabinets are the best-built I've ever seen. These are "groovin'" speakers. Excellent for Billy Cobham's "Spectrum", Mahavishnu's "Birds Of Fire", Herbie Hancock's "Headhunters", etc.
**EDIT* 8/30/12 - I now have a recapped/refurbished pair of original, ported W90's (with 6 alnico drivers per cab, including 2 of the alnico Super 3 tweeters... Pics on my profile... Click on "Albums"), and I believe No Regrets found a similar all-alnico pair shortly-after posting this thread. Fantastic speaker, the W90 is. Maybe the best I've ever heard at lower volumes... Incredible imaging, separation, and dynamics, and the best I've heard for old recordings like John Mayall's Bluesbreakers w/ Clapton doing "Hideaway" or other '60's music, or older mono stuff from the '50's and earlier. No matter what goes in, beautiful sound always comes out (I've never heard old Aretha Franklin stuff sound so-good). Just a velvety-smooth, warm, incredibly-musical, big-sounding speaker. Just the right amount of weight. I found that I definitely-prefer the Super 3 cone-tweeter to the purple, mylar dome-tweeter (with the ceramic magnet) that came later. The purple dome is an excellent tweeter, but the alnico Super 3 is something really-special. More of a mid-woofer/tweeter in one. With the combination of two Super 3's and the 2 mid-woofers they also had in each one of those cabs, the mids and highs are just an absolute delight. Smooth and airy yet totally-coherent and seamless. And just incredibly-lifelike. Laid-back, yet accurate bass (only what's needed... No overblown, over-sized bass, and no UNDER-sized bass either). Excellent upper-bass response. Smooth, yet accurate (No overhang or boom). And these things get deep. I was surprised at how good the bass-response is on these things. Unlike the ported, 2-way W60, that big low-bass is there with the W90's. I'm willing to bet that the response is flat from about 30hz all the way on up to 16khz where the tweeters start rolling off (and the highs sound very-natural... Not rolled-off, just smooth, open, and airy). When it comes to low-to-moderate-volume listening, I imagine the W90's could take down an awful lot of modern high-end speakers (especially any music with horns. Very, very-underrated.**
At the moment I have a pair of Wharfedale W60E's in a room that's about the same size as the one the OP mentioned. These things (W60E's) are great for late '60's to early '70's jazz, jazz-funk, and classic rock. Especially those early to mid '80's CD's that are super-quiet - You turn them up and they just blossom. Eumir Deodato's first two albums sound simply-amazing. I've never been so happy with my speakers before. Perfectly-designed for the music I listen to (The Allman Brothers are meant to be heard through Wharfedales. I think the W60E's may be a touch more-modern-sounding than the earlier Wharfedales (I think mine are from the late '60's). I'm really feeling a lot of love for these things, and the cabinets are the best-built I've ever seen. These are "groovin'" speakers. Excellent for Billy Cobham's "Spectrum", Mahavishnu's "Birds Of Fire", Herbie Hancock's "Headhunters", etc.
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No Regrets
Active Member
I wonder if the deal fell through because I just received an email from the seller. He states that he has had them for about 25 years, or the person who is trying to flip them is impersonating the original seller and handing me a line.
In case people are interested, he states that he used two Audio Research amps on them, one was 150 watts and the other 100 watts.
The Model # is CS-310b-CONT and have consecutive serial numbers.
He said that they can be run with a single amp or biamped. He ran them biamped. { So what is involved for me to run it with just a single amp? I've never biamped speakers before.}
The cabinets are walnut veneer and in fairly good condition, meaning in his words "that there are no gouges or nicks but some refinishing would make them look better. Mostly on the tops I am selling them because we moved to an apartment and they won't fit."
He signed his name at the end of the email and when I did a quick google search, it said that he is a dentist.
What do you guys think?
