Question on high-end interconnects

[Anubis]

Ok, I like the Monoprice premium interconnects. I've always had good luck with them and they are way better than what one can get from rat shack or the ones that come in the box with new gear.
I have also always disbelieved the hype about the uber expensive interconnects and speaker cables. I just don't see the justification for them.
That said though I am curious. I have recently had a 1 hour course in interconnect cables from a guy I met when I bought my Pioneer PL-530 and HPM100s from.
He works with cables a lot and he was showing me some and explaining them to me although I was grasping only part of it (It was a lot of info and such for an hour). He also runs them on his system which is fairly high-end to me, but it's not all that expensive. It's also separates.
Anyway, he was encouraging me to pick up one or two PBJ cables. They are the "budget line" from some uber expensive cable maker (I forget the name). Even though "budget" (I don't think $70 is very budget for one cable) they are still made just as well as the other more expensive models from this particular maker. He told me that if I hook them into where my most important interconnect would be I would notice a big difference.

Let's take money, personal preference and bragging rights out of the equation. Let's pretend I could easily afford these expensive cables. (Believe me, it's overtaxing my imagination on that one).

My question is this:
My modern system is not separates. I have an Onkyo TX-R705 with and Onkyo C390 CD player (decent dac in that thing), a Yamaha DVD player and a Sony TT linear tracking which I don't use anymore because it's cheap sounding. (It really doesn't sound all that good) I'm currently running 25 year old Kenwood towers which I got for a song back in 1985.
Now with that gear would I really notice an improvement in SQ to make it cost effective for those expensive interconnects? If so, could you explain why? Also do you think the most important interconnect is between the receiver and the CD player?

OR

Am I already as good as it gets with the monoprice stuff I run.

 

[Rex Everything]

I don't have an answer for you but can tell you the PBJ's are form Kimber

 

[Rodzilla]

yup PBJ's are from Kimber...and they're ok...honestly tho for your system,no they're likely not worth it,nor are you likely to hear what they might do...if you want to step up some, look into Bluejeans cables..maximum bang for your buck and built using pro level cables and connectors..not cheap exactly but 70 bucks will probably buy you two sets of equal quality to that used in any recording studio...

for the record i've owned a set of PBJ's since the 90's...great highs,very clear,and initially impressive because of it,but they are also often lacking warmth and low end in my opinion..which is not to say they're not an improvement over many,they are,they just never were my cup of tea,and i think better can be had cheaper...

 

[sonix]

Have you every heard of "Psycho Acoustics"? Majority of the real expensive cables are a maketing hype. If you have enough faith in an idea, especially acoustics you will surely be convinced that your new expensive cables make your system sound better.

All you need is good shielded interconects preferably gold platted and nice and tight connections. The signal will pass nicely.

I realized its a combination of cables and equipment that really make a sonic difference. If you have cheap equipment, it will not really matter what kind of interconects you use and it actually makes no sense.

I would just pick up some decently shielded interconects made by Philips for example. You can find these at Fred Meyers, I believe.

I know there will be people who will dissagree with me, especially some one who spent a bit of money on cables. Just remember "Psycho-Acoustics" and that you can't go around the laws of physics. I hope this helped. Read the link on speaker wire below.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[woodj]

Jolly good stuff!

 

[Tedrick]

Cables and IC's CAN make a difference, but not always. How much of a difference depends on your system and your ears. Wire selection has everything to do with synergy; some wires will yield very small to no improvement, some will give very noticeable improvements, and some may actually make the sound worse. The only way to know is to try for yourself. The PBJ's are not terribly expensive on the used market, hold their value well, usually sell quickly, and you would only need one or two for your system. So you could easily try for yourself and see if, in fact, YOU hear a difference.

FYI, every time one of these discussions comes up, the Roger Russell website gets trotted out as the "gospel" for why wires make no difference. However, I and many others have tried changing cables while keeping an open mind and have in fact heard differences in our own systems. Perhaps a moderator can move this thread to the Thinking Out Load forum where posts can be limited to those with actual experience.

 

[sebrof]

Have you every heard of "Psycho Acoustics"? Majority of the real expensive cables are a maketing hype. If you have enough faith in an idea, especially acoustics you will surely be convinced that your new expensive cables make your system sound better.

All you need is good shielded interconects preferably gold platted and nice and tight connections. The signal will pass nicely.

I have heard of psycho acoustics, and I actually think it's a huge factor in why so many people claim they hear a difference in things that probably should not make a difference in sound.
But I have also heard of people claiming that things absolutely do not make a difference in sound simply because they don't think they should make a difference. IOW - It goes both ways.

How do you know "All you need is good shielded interconects preferably gold platted and nice and tight connections?"
How do you know better cables won't make a difference in his system?
How do you know gold plated are preferable to other? Maybe gold plated is a bunch of BS also.
I'm not suggesting that better cables will or won't help the OP get better sound, or that very expensive cables are or are not worth the money.
But I am addressing the point that a lot of people seem to know a lot about things they have no first hand experience with. This includes people who drop "better" cables in their system and tell everyone how much better they sound without verifying some way (i.e.: psycoacoustics) and people who claim as fact that better cables will not make a difference.

I recently bought Zu Mission SCs (while they were "very cheap" at about $200 for 20') and I believe they made an improvement over the White Lightening DIY extension cords I was using. I'm just too lazy to swap back and forth, preferably with someone else doing the swapping blind to me, to really know. One of these weekends I'm going to do that.

 

[dogscanskate]

Have you every heard of "Psycho Acoustics"? Majority of the real expensive cables are a maketing hype. If you have enough faith in an idea, especially acoustics you will surely be convinced that your new expensive cables make your system sound better.

All you need is good shielded interconects preferably gold platted and nice and tight connections. The signal will pass nicely.

I realized its a combination of cables and equipment that really make a sonic difference. If you have cheap equipment, it will not really matter what kind of interconects you use and it actually makes no sense.

I would just pick up some decently shielded interconects made by Philips for example. You can find these at Fred Meyers, I believe.

I know there will be people who will dissagree with me, especially some one who spent a bit of money on cables. Just remember "Psycho-Acoustics" and that you can't go around the laws of physics. I hope this helped. Read the link on speaker wire below.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

What an awful link to suggest! Speaker wires connected to a slave box, have a long look at the screws. To top it off, add a cable selector with those weird screws again. Do they interfere with the signal? Why use copper wire with those screw, tin should do. No wonder they heard no differences, lmao!

Why don't you splice your speaker cables and connect them to screws and relays and tell me that they have no bearing on the outcome!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JoeESP9]

To the OP;
PBJ is the most inexpensive cable Kimber makes. Ask your buddy if you can borrow a pair. Then you can try them for yourself. You should be aware that PBJ is unshielded. If you have an RFI problem in your area there may be an adverse effect on your system. RFI can be bad enough that you pick up local radio, TV and CB radio. It can still have a negative effect even if it's not audible. If you hear a difference for the worse return the borrowed cable. If you hear a difference for the better it might prompt you to investigate further. If you hear no difference you've lost nothing. No matter what results you get you've maybe gained a little knowledge.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest here because while many believe all cables are the same, just as many believe cables sound different. Frankly with the gear you're using I wouldn't expect to hear any difference. This is not meant to cast any aspersions on your gear. When enthusiasts move to separates is when they usually start investigating IC's and speaker cables. If your significant other is female and you can pique her interest ask her for her opinion.

As an Electrical Engineer I was certain that there was no difference in properly constructed wires and cables. After all, measurements don't lie? I was dragged kicking and screaming into the wires and cables are different group. My first wife had fantastic hearing acuity. She could reliably identify wires and cables under double blind conditions. The wife of one of my buddies also has superb hearing and has been able to reliably identify IC's.

I'm now in the wires and cables are different camp. With that said, wires and cables can be and sometimes are priced so ridiculously high that it should make anyone wonder how they have the nerve to ask what they're asking. I use DH Labs cables and IC's. Although they cost more than Monoprice or Blue Jeans products they are IMO not excessively priced.

As for the Roger Russell site, I used to believe exactly what he says. My first wife changed my mind. My buddies wife reinforces the change. I believe, if more women were involved in this passion the question of audible differences in many things wouldn't be so polarizing.

My first wife taught me to hear small differences I was unaware of. For that I thank and curse her. Otherwise I'd not have posted this.

 

[Anubis]

Thanks folks for the name of that cable maker. Sometimes the simple names elude me.

As for the Roger Russell site. Thank you, but that only muddied the waters. I'm not so keen on his set up either, seems like a lot of unneeded stuff.

I wanted to avoid all the psycho acoustic stuff as that is merely opinion and not clinical study.

I do hold the belief towards the end that a good shielded properly made cable with good terminators is all one needs. Now of course you won't find that sort of thing with cheapo rat shack cables or the like. Monoprice premiums seem to be pretty well made and well shielded. I have had no personal problems with the terminators either. That said though, the materials and configuration used in the monoprice interconnect cables is probably not quite as pure as some others, even though they seem to work well.
In reading over the Bluejean site it seems their cables are a step above, not a huge step, but definitely a step to note.

Everything above is not conclusive of course and I probably won't find the or any answer to this whole thing around cables for some time, but it is interesting.

 

[Jailtime]

If you're looking at cables, don't forget AK sponsor Avanti Audio - http://www.avantiaudio.com/. I run Mike's ICs and speaker cables in the system listed in my sig. I did note an improvement when I changed to the Avanti ICs, and another when I went to the speaker cables. I don't think you can get better quality for the price.

 

[Anubis]

To the OP;
PBJ is the most inexpensive cable Kimber makes. Ask your buddy if you can borrow a pair. Then you can try them for yourself. You should be aware that PBJ is unshielded. If you have an RFI problem in your area there may be an adverse effect on your system. RFI can be bad enough that you pick up local radio, TV and CB radio. It can still have a negative effect even if it's not audible. If you hear a difference for the worse return the borrowed cable. If you hear a difference for the better it might prompt you to investigate further. If you hear no difference you've lost nothing. No matter what results you get you've maybe gained a little knowledge.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest here because while many believe all cables are the same, just as many believe cables sound different. Frankly with the gear you're using I wouldn't expect to hear any difference. This is not meant to cast any aspersions on your gear. When enthusiasts move to separates is when they usually start investigating IC's and speaker cables. If your significant other is female and you can pique her interest ask her for her opinion.

As an Electrical Engineer I was certain that there was no difference in properly constructed wires and cables. After all, measurements don't lie? I was dragged kicking and screaming into the wires and cables are different group. My first wife had fantastic hearing acuity. She could reliably identify wires and cables under double blind conditions. The wife of one of my buddies also has superb hearing and has been able to reliably identify IC's.

I'm now in the wires and cables are different camp. With that said, wires and cables can be and sometimes are priced so ridiculously high that it should make anyone wonder how they have the nerve to ask what they're asking. I use DH Labs cables and IC's. Although they cost more than Monoprice or Blue Jeans products they are IMO not excessively priced.

As for the Roger Russell site, I used to believe exactly what he says. My first wife changed my mind. My buddies wife reinforces the change. I believe, if more women were involved in this passion the question of audible differences in many things wouldn't be so polarizing.

My first wife taught me to hear small differences I was unaware of. For that I thank and curse her. Otherwise I'd not have posted this.

Hmm, I did not know PBJs were unshielded. Around here where I am that would most likely be a problem.
The gear I'm using is on the entry-level high-end side (obviously Integra would be that full jump to high-end for example) and it's better than a lot of other stuff out there in the same market. So I think it's ok, no wow factor, but alright. Of course, separates have a different sound, a better sound in my opinion. Someday, I hope to get into some separates.

I have a trained ear, but unless it's screaming obvious I'm not likely to notice a difference between two pretty good cables.

I'm also thinking this: Cables alone can't make a noticable difference I think. Are other factors equally important in conjunction with? For instance, speakers can make a world of difference as can sources. Electronics can as well, but it's a bit more subtle. (Of course if one has ultra efficient speakers, they can reveal other problems in one's system).

I have had those cheap rat shack cables for a long time before I discovered monoprice premiums and I can tell I have had trouble and a few failures from those cheap interconnects. That's one of those glaring differences I mentioned.

PS. my only significant other is my own shadow and if you ask me, I don't think he can be trusted 100%.

 

[Anubis]

I should probably also mention that I am aiming to build my own "upper-crust" speaker cables if you will.
I'm waiting on the final bits and then I will make the attempt.
If the speaker cables work out I'm kind of thinking trying the same route with the interconnects, but that might be harder. Also, if it won't make a notable difference with my current system, then it's not worth the effort.

 

[Anubis]

If you're looking at cables, don't forget AK sponsor Avanti Audio - http://www.avantiaudio.com/. I run Mike's ICs and speaker cables in the system listed in my sig. I did note an improvement when I changed to the Avanti ICs, and another when I went to the speaker cables. I don't think you can get better quality for the price.

Ah, didn't cross my mind until now. A quick look and I think they are pretty good from the looks of it. Not sure I'll notice anything with my current gear, but worth bookmarking anyway.

 

[anthony28]

I will say that wires between components and speakers most definitely affect the sound of one's system. I personally buy my cables custom built by a nice fellow down in south Fl. He uses high quality silver coated OFC or Tin coated OFC in his cables and they are wound/twisted and insulated with sound quality in mind. The latest "beta" set from him are my 8', 8-gauge "tightly wound" 1,610 strand count Tin coated OFC speaker connects....I was against the idea of 8 gauge and Tin coated copper at first, but the bass response was just superb and the smooth clarity was much nicer than my silver OFC 10 gauge which shocked me because I have had the best results thus far with Silver for the higher frequencies..... I have tried lots of quality connects but I spend a 3rd of what major brands cost and I am just blown away by the revealing results!:yes: They look nice too! A pic of them below connected to my pioneer.

 

[trhee]

Slight correction. The PBJ used to be the most inexpensive in the Kimber line before the Tonik came out, which is now the lowest priced in their lineup.

FWIW, I used PBJ's for many years during the early 90's and never had a problem due to their unshielded nature but of course, YMMV. I can also recommend them within their price point without hesitation other than the fact that the Kimber Timbre is a better cable IMO for just a little more money.

To the OP;
PBJ is the most inexpensive cable Kimber makes. Ask your buddy if you can borrow a pair. Then you can try them for yourself. You should be aware that PBJ is unshielded. If you have an RFI problem in your area there may be an adverse effect on your system. RFI can be bad enough that you pick up local radio, TV and CB radio. It can still have a negative effect even if it's not audible. If you hear a difference for the worse return the borrowed cable. If you hear a difference for the better it might prompt you to investigate further. If you hear no difference you've lost nothing. No matter what results you get you've maybe gained a little knowledge.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest here because while many believe all cables are the same, just as many believe cables sound different. Frankly with the gear you're using I wouldn't expect to hear any difference. This is not meant to cast any aspersions on your gear. When enthusiasts move to separates is when they usually start investigating IC's and speaker cables. If your significant other is female and you can pique her interest ask her for her opinion.

As an Electrical Engineer I was certain that there was no difference in properly constructed wires and cables. After all, measurements don't lie? I was dragged kicking and screaming into the wires and cables are different group. My first wife had fantastic hearing acuity. She could reliably identify wires and cables under double blind conditions. The wife of one of my buddies also has superb hearing and has been able to reliably identify IC's.

I'm now in the wires and cables are different camp. With that said, wires and cables can be and sometimes are priced so ridiculously high that it should make anyone wonder how they have the nerve to ask what they're asking. I use DH Labs cables and IC's. Although they cost more than Monoprice or Blue Jeans products they are IMO not excessively priced.

As for the Roger Russell site, I used to believe exactly what he says. My first wife changed my mind. My buddies wife reinforces the change. I believe, if more women were involved in this passion the question of audible differences in many things wouldn't be so polarizing.

My first wife taught me to hear small differences I was unaware of. For that I thank and curse her. Otherwise I'd not have posted this.

 

[JoeESP9]

I used Kimber Silver Streak until a CB operator with an illegal linear amplifier started interfering with radio and TV reception along with my stereo. I was quite happy with the Silver Streak but the RFI became a problem. Complaining to the FCC wasn't much help. So, I switched to the DH Labs cables. They use Silver plated OFC Copper. I'm very satisfied with them.
A serious winter snow storm in 2009 solved the RFI problem by blowing the CB antenna to New Jersey. I had already started changing to the DH Labs IC's and continued until I had replaced all the Kimber. I wanted to be ready in case another storm blew the antenna back. While I was at it I switched from Kimber TC-8 to DH Labs Q-10 Signature speaker cable. It too is Silver plated OFC Copper.

 

[HiFiSoundGuy]

Cables and IC's CAN make a difference, but not always. How much of a difference depends on your system and your ears. Wire selection has everything to do with synergy; some wires will yield very small to no improvement, some will give very noticeable improvements, and some may actually make the sound worse. The only way to know is to try for yourself. The PBJ's are not terribly expensive on the used market, hold their value well, usually sell quickly, and you would only need one or two for your system. So you could easily try for yourself and see if, in fact, YOU hear a difference.

FYI, every time one of these discussions comes up, the Roger Russell website gets trotted out as the "gospel" for why wires make no difference. However, I and many others have tried changing cables while keeping an open mind and have in fact heard differences in our own systems. Perhaps a moderator can move this thread to the Thinking Out Load forum where posts can be limited to those with actual experience.

I agree about the synergy between the cables and the your other components.....

 

[JohnVF]

I agree about the synergy between the cables and the your other components.....

I have a silver audioquest balanced cable that sounds great with one CD player, when used with a particular preamp and speakers. Switch the speakers to my Quads, and I have to switch the AQ silver cable for a Straightwire Crescendo XLR cable of the same length. OR, if I run a different CD player with the original speakers, I have to use the Straightwire cable, too. The silver cable ONLY works with that one combination. It leans heavily towards a detailed presentation, and with my slightly more rolled-off Sony SS-m7s, that detail is nice- it is all balanced out. There's synergy. With the Quads, I get detaill overload. Same with the other CD player, which is more detailed and can get bright with a bad matchup. Its not really rocket science- the cable that can be overly bright, goes with the CD player/Speakers that can both be a bit mellow. And so on. But cable synergy is there.

 

[dspear99ca]

I'm with JoeESP9, my background is also EE, and kicking and screaming about sums it up. I have monoprice interconnects, but will get around to building some of these:

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/cables.htm

Even if you do build them yourself the parts are fairly expensive... I am getting to the point where I think it's worth it to invest, as I've travelled a ways along the audiophile road and am quite convinced I'd hear a difference with the system I now have.