Recapping A Classic...The Pros and Cons?

[anthony28]

Hello, I just recently started a thread about the rarity of these Pioneer CS-100's.http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=306466 I received a few posts about recapping the X-overs. These sound great now, but if a recap would make them sound that much better, I might just consider it. I would like to hear some feedback about the Pros and Cons of recapping. Also is this something that can be done without pro test equipment? Please let me know what differences you have heard after a recap on some good classic speakers. Did you do a recap yourself? Below are some attachments.

(Please excuse the Yellow pics because of my Halogen lights).

 

[sealy]

There isn't really a downside to re-capping. Modern poly caps are by and large smoother, last longer and are relatively inexpensive, unless you tendencies run towards the high-end stuff.

Re-capping is also fairly simple. I also find it enjoyable and rewarding from the standpoint that one's hard work has improved the sound of the speaker.

 

[gearhound]

No downside to recapping, in my book either.
Once it's done with modern film caps, unlike electrolytic caps, it's done for good.

Steve

 

[dc270]

Ditto here as well- most of the time you get a power upgrade as well! Some esoteric caps can be quite revealing I understand. I have always liked the Dayton 5% poly from PE- great price and a very nice sounding cap.
DC

 

[Jcricket]

+4
I even have a rule now. I will not sell a vintage set of speaekrs because of sound, unless I have recapped them first. I have found the difference can be very dramatic. No downside I see.

Well, maybe one downside. I have founs some really anal people about wanting strictly all original speakers. Those people sometimes frown on recapping.

 

[anthony28]

I know my pics are not the best detailed pics, but the "caps" would be the smaller silver cylinders running parallel to the board(Laying on their sides)?... The large wax paper covered round coils look to be something else, and have no values writen on them. I assume these will stay in place. The silver caps have values that I can see so these would be the only ones to replace I hope? I do feel confident I can recap these, it's just knowing which are the proper caps. I think I got it right. These X-over parts just look so old school and bulky it's crazy to look at.:scratch2: I have replaced caps on a Imac Logic board so I think I can do this. Just need a good eye to send me on my way!

I will post a much better pic soon of a dead on shot above the board.

 

[JBCobra]

I'll bet you 100 clams they sound much better when you are finishes re-capping
It is fun too. Then you will never be second-guessing yourself about how they sound.
JB

 

[Stuart Pedaso]

These X-over parts just look so old school and bulky it's crazy to look at.:scratch2: I have replaced caps on a Imac Logic board so I think I can do this.

Modern electrolytic caps are usually smaller than their older counterparts. But expect a modern poly cap to be significantly larger than the original non-polar electrolytics in your crossovers. Could take some strategic placement to fit 'em in there.

 

[similost]

You're talking about a pair of old Pioneer speakers here, with very limited collectibility... The majority of people in the world would see little to no value in them... Not like you're asking if you should change the original engine in an original 65 Shelby to a more modern 427 or something....

Cap 'em and enjoy them..

 

[sealy]

Replace all the electrolytics, even the higher-value caps. You can either substitute a large poly cap or parallel several small-value caps to make up the value of the larger cap, or simply replace it with an equivalent value new electrolytic cap. The latter option is the more cost-effective and is simpler.

 

[gkimeng]

Hello, I just recently started a thread about the rarity of these Pioneer CS-100's. I received a few posts about recapping the X-overs. These sound great now, but if a recap would make them sound that much better, I might just consider it. I would like to hear some feedback about the Pros and Cons of recapping. Also is this something that can be done without pro test equipment? Please let me know what differences you have heard after a recap on some good classic speakers. Did you do a recap yourself? Below are some attachments.

The most likely potential downsides are the possibility that you might expend time, effort and money for no real improvement, which probably isn't a big deal in a hobby where half the pleasure is in the tweaking, or that while going into the speaker and recapping you might accidentally damage something or rewire it incorrectly, which could potentially be a very big deal. We also have one instance on record where measurements indicated that recapping a vintage speaker would increase HF output at the cost of making an existing bass response issue worse (http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?s=&showtopic=5815&view=findpost&p=82841), and that is something you might need more equipment to detect and avoid (in this instance, a more complicated crossover redesign was the final result).

I've only recapped one pair of speakers that didn't have an obvious need (leaking or otherwise damaged cap). I did a listening test after doing one speaker and couldn't hear any difference between before and after, but went ahead and did the other speaker anyway because I'd already bought the components.

 

[JBCobra]

Since hanging out on here with you guys on here, I re-cap everything Its all you guys fault LOL
It like a fine tune on an engine. God forbid we leave a couple extra ponies on the table

 

[anthony28]

You're talking about a pair of old Pioneer speakers here, with very limited collectibility... The majority of people in the world would see little to no value in them... Not like you're asking if you should change the original engine in an original 65 Shelby to a more modern 427 or something....

Cap 'em and enjoy them..

You sure know how to make a new guy to the forums of AK feel good about his Gear..... Truth or not, Thanks

 

[Spkerjunkie]

I would recap. You will hear a difference in the HF, more clear,maybe a bit brighter, only because the caps you have in there now aren't up to snuff. I use metalized caps for those, from Parts Express. They are advertised as 10% tolerance, but they are actually 5%. As for the low end, I use metalized too, IF the values aren't too high (<15uf. But IF they are >than 15uf AND originally electrolytic (and most are) I use new electrolytic caps. Otherwise metalized caps can get expensive, the higher value, the more $$. The low end usually isn't as critical. Some speakers (and good ones too) don't have a cap on the low end. Some have just an inductor or coil, some, have nothing at all. Just my own opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[Spkerjunkie]

You sure know how to make a new guy to the forums of AK feel good about his Gear..... Truth or not, Thanks

Hey brother, pay it no mind. There ARE a lot of folks who value your speakers the same as you do (ebay will attest to that). Don't let some one's opinion bother you, for that is all it is. An opinion. It's YOURS that matters most!

 

[Andyman]

I would recap. You will hear a difference in the HF, more clear,maybe a bit brighter, only because the caps you have in there now aren't up to snuff.

Well, it's more like that they've developed ESR and are choking off the highs rather than drifted out of spec. That's why they'll sound brighter/louder in the mids and highs.

FWIW, I'd just slap some new electrolytics in there, unless you're planning on keeping those speakers for a LONG time. As mentioned earlier, those are highly sought speakers, so I wouldn't spend the $$ for the high end caps when fresh electrolytics should serve you fine. Plus, if you do fall in love and want to switch them out, it won't be a lot of money you're out. Aa an example, an 8.0 uf electrolytic is $0.58 from PE, the comparable Dayton is $3.21. :yes:

 

[jimreeves]

I know my pics are not the best detailed pics, but the "caps" would be the smaller silver cylinders running parallel to the board(Laying on their sides)?... The large wax paper covered round coils look to be something else, and have no values writen on them. I assume these will stay in place. The silver caps have values that I can see so these would be the only ones to replace I hope? I do feel confident I can recap these, it's just knowing which are the proper caps. I think I got it right.

YES, the silver cylinders are the electrolytic capacitors, to answer your question. They typically allow the high frequencies to pass to the speakers and block the lows ("high Pass").
The large wire coils are the inductors, which typically allow the low frequencies to pass to the speakers while blocking the high frequencies ("low pass"). The coil inductors should be good forever.
With 3-way or 4-way speakers (or more) there will often be circuits for the midrange or midbass called "band pass". Those circuits will usually have both a capacitor and a inductor which blocks both low and high frequencies, allowing only the range best suited to the midrange.

If you need to recap on the cheap, follow the wiring from the tweeter and midrange to their particular caps, then buy poly caps in those values. The others in the speaker circuit can then be cheaper non-polar electrolytics. Personally, I'd replace them all with Dayton polys for the extra $10 to $20 bucks, then you're only doing it once.

BTW, all poly caps are non-polar, not all electrolytics are. You'll need non-polars for your speakers.

 

[anthony28]

YES, the silver cylinders are the electrolytic capacitors, to answer your question. They typically allow the high frequencies to pass to the speakers and block the lows ("high Pass").
The large wire coils are the inductors, which typically allow the low frequencies to pass to the speakers while blocking the high frequencies ("low pass"). The coil inductors should be good forever.
With 3-way or 4-way speakers (or more) there will often be circuits for the midrange or midbass called "band pass". Those circuits will usually have both a capacitor and a inductor which blocks both low and high frequencies, allowing only the range best suited to the midrange.

If you need to recap on the cheap, follow the wiring from the tweeter and midrange to their particular caps, then buy poly caps in those values. The others in the speaker circuit can then be cheaper non-polar electrolytics. Personally, I'd replace them all with Dayton polys for the extra $10 to $20 bucks, then you're only doing it once.

BTW, all poly caps are non-polar, not all electrolytics are. You'll need non-polars for your speakers.

Thanks for breaking that down :thmbsp:

 

[jimreeves]

Someone posted the schematic in the AK database, here...
http://akdatabase.com/AKview/albums/userpics/10004/Pioneer CS100 Schematic.pdf

 

[Spkerjunkie]

I have found caps to be reasonable here:

http://www.parts-express.com/crossover-capacitor-index.cfm?CFID=31270630&CFTOKEN=42219436

If you have to cut costs use electrolytic caps, but I would still use Dayton's on the tweeters (not very costly)

You may not find the exact value you need, but putting caps in parallel is the same as adding the values together. ie, if you need a 35uf, just put a 33uf and 2uf in parallel together.

As for the inductors, I would leave then alone.

If the resistors are within 10% of their value, I would leave them alone too.

Also, I would spray those switches with Deoxit or some other contact cleaner if you haven't already.