Modified Forte 1 Upgrades-Bob Crites Autotransformers and Titanium Tweeters

[SET12]

Greetings SET.

I was wondering if you had to change the value of the cap in front of your c-core auto transformer or do any other adjustments of the values of the stock forte network to make it integrate properly?

And by the way; thanks for your great work and effort you put in to this project, and for sharing it with the rest of us!

Keep up the great work!

Cbarth

Welcome to AK Cbarth,

With any auto-transformer as long as the same turns-ratio is being used in the Forte the same crossover frequency is maintained. So the same value cap can be used.

With this particular network one cannot change the taps used as the crossover frequency would change necessitating a change in coupling cap value.

The reason for this is with any auto-transformer (a single winding transformer) used this way in the Forte is that load which is = as seen by the coupling cap (considered the primary) is the turns ratio squared seen by the mid (considered a secondary).

If you run some example #'s say a mid is 8 ohm's and the turns-ratio is 3 to 1 or (9.54db down) squaring it you now have 9. Now 9 X the 8 ohm mid gives a reflected primary of 72 ohm's that the coupling cap see's.

If one wanted to raise the mid level say to a 2 to 1 ratio level this would generate a reflected load of 32 ohm's necessitating a change in cap value.

In general this not a particularly good design for the Forte as the loading is all over the place instead of a nice flat impedance load as obtained through ALK aftermarket networks. ALK achieves this by using a swamping resistor of 8-10 ohm's in front of the Auto-transformer. Though this dictates using very large coupling cap values making cost very high to use exotic caps like the Duelund Copper VSF 1uf that I use with the stock Forte configuration.

But surprisingly the Forte still manages to sound subjectively very good heavily modified as I have done. So good in fact I might have to spend $10,000 to get the same satisfaction from a commercial offerings.

I have future plans for a new network design similar to an ALK Universal.

I stand by my motto,"If you want extraordinary sound you must do extraordinary things"

My whole system is a reflection of this philosophy.


SET12

 

[Dave C]

"If you want extraordinary sound you must do extraordinary things"

My whole system is a reflection of this philosophy.


SET12

Yes it is!

P.S. I have the new amp up and running SET, 12BH7A is one power hungry tube, might change it out.

 

[piqachu]

Hi,
I read this thread carefully and I have the klipsch completely original from 1986.
Thank you for yours works.

It's possible for the tweeters:
- inductor:http://cgi.ebay.fr/Jantzen-Audio-Lu...r_Selbstbau&hash=item35a927be3e#ht_1224wt_900
-caps K40Y-9 russian (1 + 0.47 uf //)

for the squawker:
- caps K75-10 1uf or jantzen Z-superior 1uF

for woofer:
- SCR or jantzen MKP crosscap or Z standard.
- inductor: origin klipsch ( because other is worth) or...

the signal woofer is not accurate than others.

To the ground, I hesitate between the peaks ( points, spikes) and raise to 0.33 feet ( 10 cm ) with a medium wood (oak).

thanks from France

 

[shacky]

It's possible for the tweeters:
- inductor:http://cgi.ebay.fr/Jantzen-Audio-Lu...r_Selbstbau&hash=item35a927be3e#ht_1224wt_900
-caps K40Y-9 russian (1 + 0.47 uf //)

Those K40Y-9 are very nice caps :yes:

 

[SET12]

Those K40Y-9 are very nice caps :yes:

Thanks Shacky, yes I have heard they are nice.

Hi,
I read this thread carefully and I have the klipsch completely original from 1986.
Thank you for yours works.

It's possible for the tweeters:
- inductor:http://cgi.ebay.fr/Jantzen-Audio-Lu...r_Selbstbau&hash=item35a927be3e#ht_1224wt_900
-caps K40Y-9 russian (1 + 0.47 uf //)

for the squawker:
- caps K75-10 1uf or jantzen Z-superior 1uF

for woofer:
- SCR or jantzen MKP crosscap or Z standard.
- inductor: origin klipsch ( because other is worth) or...

the signal woofer is not accurate than others.

To the ground, I hesitate between the peaks ( points, spikes) and raise to 0.33 feet ( 10 cm ) with a medium wood (oak).

thanks from France

Welcome to AK! piqachu

I tend to recommend this mans work on cap selections

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

BTW my 47uf cap being used is about to change, I'm thing about Obbligato.

IMO you haven't heard the real potential of what the Forte woofers are really capable of this shouldn't be based on the 22AWG inductors that have 40ft of thin wire between the woofer and amplifier. So much is lost from the stock Inductors. Often people hearing my Fortes are looking around the room for subs and of course my response is I'd rather have the $600 inductors that I use that cover a range of 30hz to 700hz then spend hundreds $ for a sub that covers 20hz to 120hz. What they are hearing is the superb performance of body and dynamics from the whole range that the inductor is covering. All I can say is the look on peoples faces say's it all.

For inductors I'm pretty much biased in this mans products for many reasons. Please read Inductor FAQ's near the bottom of the page on the link.

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html

So IMO I have found that the Inductors have much more influence to the sound then capacitors. But don't get me wrong they are important to! I also find that Litz Inductors tend to make the tweeters sound hot from my subjective point of view. I also like large Air Core Inductors as they give a greater sense of ease, space and authority. Even for the tweeters.

Iron core inductors in contrast to air core IMO come across as wimpy, sloppy and with poor continuity in performance across their operating range being used for. Tiny air core inductors leave a lot to be desired as well.

In the end YMMV depending on system needs and of course what your looking for.

Good Luck and keep us Forte Owners informed.

SET12

 

[l-myers]

Question about price-performance upgrade on my Fortes:

I have the Crites titanium tweeter diaphragms, and installed his new crossover boards at around the same time. Would I get more bang for my bucks from waiting until the titanium midrange are available again, or by splicing in Northcreek 10- or 12- gauge inductors in place of the iron-cores that Bob faithfully replaces from the original Klipsch design?

My impression is that the inductor upgrade would be a more subtle, source-quality-dependent upgrade, while the titanium mids would be more apparent, but I look for the experience of those who have been performing these upgrades more than I have...

 

[SET12]

Have to leave for work in a few minutes, I'll ponder on this a bit while at work tonight and get back to you.

 

[piqachu]

thanks set 12,
for the 0.16mh tweeter inductor:
Jantzen Audio inductor 1,6mm - 0,15mH - 0,084Ohm AWG14 ; it's right for beginning because the price is cheap. and the value? (0.15 instead 0.16mh)

 

[SET12]

thanks set 12,
for the 0.16mh tweeter inductor:
Jantzen Audio inductor 1,6mm - 0,15mH - 0,084Ohm AWG14 ; it's right for beginning because the price is cheap. and the value? (0.15 instead 0.16mh)

AH! I see 1.6mm is 14AWG. your choice with 14AWG is a far cry from the stock values. But still if your going through this trouble of modifying I would use 12AWG as its the starting point for high performance and its not that much more. Also Solen does have the right .16mH in 14AWG, you'll get a little bit of roll off with the ,15mH but it is fairly close.

Question about price-performance upgrade on my Fortes:

I have the Crites titanium tweeter diaphragms, and installed his new crossover boards at around the same time. Would I get more bang for my bucks from waiting until the titanium midrange are available again, or by splicing in Northcreek 10- or 12- gauge inductors in place of the iron-cores that Bob faithfully replaces from the original Klipsch design?

My impression is that the inductor upgrade would be a more subtle, source-quality-dependent upgrade, while the titanium mids would be more apparent, but I look for the experience of those who have been performing these upgrades more than I have...

It can come across subtly until you use associated components that are more capable. The inductors will really shine if you have components capable of a wide deep sound stage with a solid foundation, where as the stock iron cores shrink the sound stage keeping it with the speakers boundaries and from George at North Creek from the basic compression of iron cores the bass is mush. It sounds as you have some good gear.

The North Creek is going to help[ with the foundation of the music. For the Titanium tweeters the North Creek sweeten them up considerably. When I used a Duelund 39 ohm resistor across the tweeter it went to an even higher level of subjective satisfaction. It wasn't even close vs the nice Ohmite from North Creek I was using or at least I thought it was nice! Not.

If one is using the Fortes with a vintage receiver or amplifier then I would be inclined to just stay with your Crites.

As to the Mids yes the Titanium is worth the $165 every penny. Not that tonally you'll hear a lot but the mid holds together under high power substantially better. But this is pretty loud when you notice this. Bob's mids are a far cry from stock but IMO need about 40-50hrs to open up as the stage is smaller at first. His mid is better all around vs stock but the Titanium is just in another league IMO.

On one hand the mid holds up better for rock music especially but the iron core inductors compress the music size and subtract from the musics bass foundation not to mention rest of the damage. And we all know that foundation means a lot to rock especially making it believable. Personally I like jazz a lot and without the foundation for acoustic bass I get bored. BTW the North Creek are something else with piano!

So IMO you get smoothness, body, size and a great foundation with inductors. This also goes for the highs which sound thin with other inductors.

So I think would suggest inductors first and wait for the mids, I think you said you have SS so they really should kick in.

With your impression that an Inductor would be subtle, yes I think this is most peoples impressions which is why they usually go for the caps first and rarely inductors, that is until they hear real inductors with meat.

Splice away.

SET12

 

[l-myers]

It can come across subtly until you use associated components that are more capable. The inductors will really shine if you have components capable of a wide deep sound stage with a solid foundation, where as the stock iron cores shrink the sound stage keeping it with the speakers boundaries and from George at North Creek from the basic compression of iron cores the bass is mush. It sounds as you have some good gear.

The North Creek is going to help[ with the foundation of the music. For the Titanium tweeters the North Creek sweeten them up considerably. When I used a Duelund 39 ohm resistor across the tweeter it went to an even higher level of subjective satisfaction. It wasn't even close vs the nice Ohmite from North Creek I was using or at least I thought it was nice! Not.

If one is using the Fortes with a vintage receiver or amplifier then I would be inclined to just stay with your Crites.

As to the Mids yes the Titanium is worth the $165 every penny. Not that tonally you'll hear a lot but the mid holds together under high power substantially better. But this is pretty loud when you notice this. Bob's mids are a far cry from stock but IMO need about 40-50hrs to open up as the stage is smaller at first. His mid is better all around vs stock but the Titanium is just in another league IMO.

On one hand the mid holds up better for rock music especially but the iron core inductors compress the music size and subtract from the musics bass foundation not to mention rest of the damage. And we all know that foundation means a lot to rock especially making it believable. Personally I like jazz a lot and without the foundation for acoustic bass I get bored. BTW the North Creek are something else with piano!

So IMO you get smoothness, body, size and a great foundation with inductors. This also goes for the highs which sound thin with other inductors.

So I think would suggest inductors first and wait for the mids, I think you said you have SS so they really should kick in.

With your impression that an Inductor would be subtle, yes I think this is most peoples impressions which is why they usually go for the caps first and rarely inductors, that is until they hear real inductors with meat.

Splice away.

SET12

Thanks as always for your observations. I would love to hear your Fortes someday, but the Mrs. might not like the resulting migration of funds from savings :nono:

 

[SET12]

Thanks as always for your observations. I would love to hear your Fortes someday, but the Mrs. might not like the resulting migration of funds from savings :nono:

Yes they are a treat especially when contrasting a stock pair. The look on peoples faces is priceless. Your welcome for a listen, I can even put you up for a night or two. The furthest I have had someone drive is 900mi round trip. And the verdict was! he gave up his $1300 ALK ES networks for a North Creek DIY version of the ALK Universals.

Just a note, for the money the Solens air cores are 1/2 the price of North Creek and are a good alternative in contrast to living with iron core inductors.

12AWG is $60 for the 3mH and since Solen doesn't offer a .16 mH in 12AWG The North Creek 12AWG in this value (custom made) is relatively cheap at $23.55 bringing a total cost of approximately $166. Which is near the same cost as the mid Titanium diaphragms.

SET12

 

[moray james]

A solid sound cabinet with structural integrity is first and foremost, how else can you think that you will be able to hear changes you make elsewhere. Raise the speaker so the mid horn is at your seated ear level. Address driver noise and distortion. Do likewise with your horns. Ti diaphragms. Inductors and then caps. Work from the largest distortions towards the smallest. This process has never failed to yield results over the time that I have used it. I have watched many do things backwards only to lose interest as the results did not seem to justify the cost. Best regards Moray James.

 

[SET12]

Thanks Moray,

I haven't heard jdg123's new networks yet which also use a Dave Slagle Auto-Transformers wound with Cardas Wire transformers were custom done for apprx. $300/pair

I heard his system with his ES networks, his BOS45 amplifiers had lots of warmth and amazing dynamic impact for 1.6 watts, you wouldn't know you were listening to a one watt anything. His speakers have the Fast Track mids I believe they were ALK sourced. He reports that the new simpler networks give him greater impact with much more information. The networks are are built on 12in X 16in platforms and weigh in at 20lbs each.

 

[piqachu]

ok, I understand.
for tweeters: I'm trying to find a 12 gauge inductor cheap ( mundorf 0.15mh 12AWG near $15 or other) and upgrade to titanium bob crites is it necessary? the north creek are too expensive for me as CT 125.

Originally Posted by SET12
a note, for the money the Solens air cores are 1/2 the price of North Creek and are a good alternative in contrast to living with iron core inductors.

12AWG is $60 for the 3mH and since Solen doesn't offer a .16 mH in 12AWG The North Creek 12AWG in this value (custom made) is relatively cheap at $23.55 bringing a total cost of approximately $166. Which is near the same cost as the mid Titanium diaphragms.

where are they for sale?

for squawker: it is necessary to change the autoformer by the B & K or other .a change will it be better?
in the schématics is a registered T10A but there are "revision" the T10A (-9 dB) was T2a (-3, -6, -9,-12db). replace what is: Model 3654, Model 3619, Model 3636?

for the woofer: I'm also looking for a 12 gauge minimum inductor.

I also looked here:http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/Jantzen% 20Audio% 20Crossovers.pdf
tweeter 18awg!
Woofer: 14AWG!
What do you think? too undersized?

Also Solen does have the right .16mH in 14AWG, you'll get a little bit of roll off with the ,15mH but it is fairly close.

sorry but I do not understand the meaning of the sentence as my English is approximate.

for points, is that soundcare jupiter Superspikes good?

thanks

 

[l-myers]

Yes they are a treat especially when contrasting a stock pair. The look on peoples faces is priceless. Your welcome for a listen, I can even put you up for a night or two. The furthest I have had someone drive is 900mi round trip. And the verdict was! he gave up his $1300 ALK ES networks for a North Creek DIY version of the ALK Universals.

Just a note, for the money the Solens air cores are 1/2 the price of North Creek and are a good alternative in contrast to living with iron core inductors
12AWG is $60 for the 3mH and since Solen doesn't offer a .16 mH in 12AWG The North Creek 12AWG in this value (custom made) is relatively cheap at $23.55 bringing a total cost of approximately $166. Which is near the same cost as the mid Titanium diaphragms.

SET12

Oops, a bit of gas on the brain... My bad...

 

[SET12]

ok, I understand.
for tweeters: I'm trying to find a 12 gauge inductor cheap ( mundorf 0.15mh 12AWG near $15 or other) and upgrade to titanium bob crites is it necessary? the north creek are too expensive for me as CT 125.

where are they for sale?

for squawker: it is necessary to change the autoformer by the B & K or other .a change will it be better?
in the schématics is a registered T10A but there are "revision" the T10A (-9 dB) was T2a (-3, -6, -9,-12db). replace what is: Model 3654, Model 3619, Model 3636?

for the woofer: I'm also looking for a 12 gauge minimum inductor.

I also looked here:http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/Jantzen% 20Audio% 20Crossovers.pdf
tweeter 18awg!
Woofer: 14AWG!
What do you think? too undersized?


sorry but I do not understand the meaning of the sentence as my English is approximate.

for points, is that soundcare jupiter Superspikes good?

thanks

Your Jantzen link didn't work but this should http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/coils/Wire%20Coils%20List%20%2004%2006%202008.pdf

From what I see Jantzen does not offer a large enough AWG in .16mH.

Jantzen makes a 3.0mH 15AWG for $31 but is small if you have to use it I think it will sound better then the stock 22AWG iron core. IMO the first thing I'd do is remove the iron core in favor of an air core.

Mundorf does not make a .16mH air core either

For some of the performance I have I would recommend at least a 12AWG.

So yes 18AWG and 14AWG is to undersized but again a 14 AWG air core will typically out perform the stock 22AWG Iron core Inductor which must be replaced. There is 40ft of 22AWG wire on the stock inductor between the amplifier and woofer. This is where a lot of control of the woofer is lost.

Jupiter Super Spikes use rubber coupling to the floor, this is not good with carpeting or wood floors IMO. What you want is something like this which gives you the option to use the spikes in coasters on wood floors and use spikes only on carpeted floors so the spikes can penetrate to the floor underneath the carpet. Spikes typically will not damage the carpet.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=240-678

Many more to chose from here http://www.compare99.com/compare.html?q=speaker-floor-spikes&ort=Speaker-Spikes-Sale&adid=iaCkp56105aTnsbUkISinMzH1lehnp6105aTnsbUkISinMzH1lelcMjD2KRYlsnD1W6l&gaa=S

I would prefer Brass if possible.

Auto-transformers yes they are worth their money. But they are $79/pair. Largely their worth is dependent on your current needs. Will it be better? depends on your system. For me the inductors are more serious. But I would want a bifilar winding for good mid's as well. The heart of the music. Basicly I wanted it all which is why I did what I have done.

I believe I was told that the difference T10a and the T10A might be that the 10A uses bifilar winding for a wider frequency response.

The Crites Auto transformer is about 50% larger then stock.

Site link http://www.critesspeakers.com/autotransformers.html

The 3036 is a Crites spec and offers any tap between -1db and -12db. This can be useful for other Klipsch Network modifications.

The 3619 is an ALK spec transformer which is not quite as versatile as the Crites.

Crites link for tweeters scroll down to the bottom of the page http://www.critesspeakers.com/klipsch_tweeters.html The Crites CT125 cannot be used in the Forte.

Speaker placement is critical for this speaker IMO. It needs a wall (not out in the open) and two full Corners but not placed in the corners and no open ended corners This setup can reproduce ambiance ques as to how large the room was when the recording was made. My room is 18ft by 14ft system set up is on the long wall. The image is very deep and very big and wide as much as much as 30ft wide depending on the recording. A stock Forte speaker in my room has an image that barely gets by the speaker boundaries which are 9ft apart in my room. it also sounds somewhat close in. Whereas the modified Forte greatly exceed this. Of course associated equipment must have this capability as well. For me this is my amplifiers and CDP which I use direct. No preamp.

Here is how my system is set up

Whew!

SET12

 

[SET12]

Oops, a bit of gas on the brain... My bad...

Don't know whether you mean the networks or the cost?

But yes the networks look busy and are a site on the brain. But really they are simpler then one thinks and my friend John's project was a first time effort. He is a craftsman yes but not the most electrically incline. If he can do this others can as well.

Here is the ALK Universal for John's LaScala's or Khorn's

Of course a Forte is a cake walk!

 

[l-myers]

Don't know whether you mean the networks or the cost?

But yes the networks look busy and are a site on the brain. But really they are simpler then one thinks and my friend John's project was a first time effort. He is a craftsman yes but not the most electrically incline. If he can do this others can as well.

Here is the ALK Universal for John's LaScala's or Khorn's

Of course a Forte is a cake walk!

I had posted a comment about the size/rating of the large inductor, and found by actually checking that I was wrong; edited it with the "brain f@rt" comment... sorry about silliness and misunderstanding.

Yes, the Forte I seems a pretty simple diagram, compared to the ALKs and newer iterations of speakers.

I might have questions about calculating crossover specs for 3-way speakers with multiple woofers soon, but it's all in the pondering stage at this point...

 

[piqachu]

Hi set 12,
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/Jantzen Audio Crossovers.pdf

http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/Jantzen%20Audio%20Crossovers.pdf

If the link doesn't work: Go Google, write " jantzen klipsh forte". It's:"Jantzen Audio - Klipsch Forte Crossover Rebuild By Jake Montzingo"

 

[piqachu]

Your Jantzen link didn't work but this should http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/coils/Wire%20Coils%20List%20%2004%2006%202008.pdf

From what I see Jantzen does not offer a large enough AWG in .16mH.

Jantzen makes a 3.0mH 15AWG for $31 but is small if you have to use it I think it will sound better then the stock 22AWG iron core. IMO the first thing I'd do is remove the iron core in favor of an air core.

Mundorf does not make a .16mH air core either

For some of the performance I have I would recommend at least a 12AWG.

So yes 18AWG and 14AWG is to undersized but again a 14 AWG air core will typically out perform the stock 22AWG Iron core Inductor which must be replaced. There is 40ft of 22AWG wire on the stock inductor between the amplifier and woofer. This is where a lot of control of the woofer is lost.

Jupiter Super Spikes use rubber coupling to the floor, this is not good with carpeting or wood floors IMO. What you want is something like this which gives you the option to use the spikes in coasters on wood floors and use spikes only on carpeted floors so the spikes can penetrate to the floor underneath the carpet. Spikes typically will not damage the carpet.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=240-678

Many more to chose from here http://www.compare99.com/compare.html?q=speaker-floor-spikes&ort=Speaker-Spikes-Sale&adid=iaCkp56105aTnsbUkISinMzH1lehnp6105aTnsbUkISinMzH1lelcMjD2KRYlsnD1W6l&gaa=S

I would prefer Brass if possible.

Auto-transformers yes they are worth their money. But they are $79/pair. Largely their worth is dependent on your current needs. Will it be better? depends on your system. For me the inductors are more serious. But I would want a bifilar winding for good mid's as well. The heart of the music. Basicly I wanted it all which is why I did what I have done.

I believe I was told that the difference T10a and the T10A might be that the 10A uses bifilar winding for a wider frequency response.

The Crites Auto transformer is about 50% larger then stock.

Site link http://www.critesspeakers.com/autotransformers.html

The 3036 is a Crites spec and offers any tap between -1db and -12db. This can be useful for other Klipsch Network modifications.

The 3619 is an ALK spec transformer which is not quite as versatile as the Crites.

Crites link for tweeters scroll down to the bottom of the page http://www.critesspeakers.com/klipsch_tweeters.html The Crites CT125 cannot be used in the Forte.

Speaker placement is critical for this speaker IMO. It needs a wall (not out in the open) and two full Corners but not placed in the corners and no open ended corners This setup can reproduce ambiance ques as to how large the room was when the recording was made. My room is 18ft by 14ft system set up is on the long wall. The image is very deep and very big and wide as much as much as 30ft wide depending on the recording. A stock Forte speaker in my room has an image that barely gets by the speaker boundaries which are 9ft apart in my room. it also sounds somewhat close in. Whereas the modified Forte greatly exceed this. Of course associated equipment must have this capability as well. For me this is my amplifiers and CDP which I use direct. No preamp.

Here is how my system is set up

Whew!

SET12

thank you for all links.
For points, my floor is tiled. so hard. this is why I thought of Soundcare superspikes.
I looked at retail sites in France and in Europe and I can not find 0.16 and 3.0 mh in AWG12.
I can not buy in the U.S. because of the weight.
I'll still try to look.
therefore the self-train is not a priority?( I understood?), I would first change the capacitors, air core inductors and diaph titanium and I suppose the internal cables.

for inductors, there is there a difference between the solen litz (stranded)( like Brinkman) and other (monofilament)?, I read that you'd prefer the far north creek monofilament.

My drive is a consonance cd2.2 tweaked and amp tubes consonance ref 5.0 with 300B, synergistic research interconnects looking glass and speaker cable Van den Hul Magnum Hybrid.

my Forte is 1 foot in front of the wall, the left does not have a corner because the wall is open and the right one is 1 foot from a corner

thanks