Upper end idler opinions sought

[Dandy]

To toss another thought in: after years of only using idlers (Lenco, Garrard, Thorens and Miracord), I'm doing all my listening on a pro quality direct drive, made in the UK and branded Phase 2. I'd recommend it, if I could find any info about it.

The point in saying this is that there are lots of tts out there to discover and explore. I'd not heard of a NEAT before this thread, but it looks good.

 

[grottyash]

What do you base this statement on? What is the value of a modded Lenco? A modded Thorens? A modded Garrard? Can you give some real world examples of modded Lenco values and how they have declined. How about real world examples of modded Thorens and modded Garrrads and how they haven't declined?


Is this a trend with modified Lecos only? Or do modified Thorens and Garrards have an immunity and always hold their value. By only stating that Lencos don't hold their value you are implying that the others DON"T loose value.
You bring up an interesting observation.
I modded my Lenco for its' sound, not its' monetary value.

Russcos are rim drive just like some Garrards and some Thorens, and some Rek-O Kuts, Gates, some Duals and Fairchilds, some Miracords, Neat, and Presto, just off the top of my head. I am sure I left some out.

Not quite. I am saying that the money you invest in substantially modding a Lenco you may not back when you come to sell. I agree, though, that modded Lencos don't come up very often, so their owners are obviously both happy and proud of their modding. I've seen a couple of modded Lencos come up on ebay in Europe and they haven't sold, although original ones do and quickly, which leads me to think part of the attraction is the DIY aspect.

301s and 401s are different, because they came as a chassis to be inserted into a plinth and required an arm, though this was often an SME. 301s go for crazy money now, and finding a cheap 401 nearly impossible - £400 or 500€ is the buy in price here, that's for chassis in only fair condition. Beyond the plinth there's not much to spend on them, as was mentioned in another thread. Both Garrards appear to be appreciating, which makes me, as an owner, happy .

Can't comment on Thorens because I know little about them.

 

[fiddlefye]

For amusement purposes I did a little hunting online over the weekend for possible candidates (not that I've quite reached that point yet). Amazing how many are to be had in other parts of the world and how few in N. America of any sort (not just Thorens/Garrard/Lenco etc.).

 

[sachu888]

A little trade secret:
Many of those decks (Garrard and Thorens) get sold to buy better arms for the Lenco builds. It happens all the time.

+1 what Mike says.Its 100% true,buy Lenco while they are available.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[grottyash]

+1 what Mike says.Its 100% true,buy Lenco while they are available.

Regards,
Sachin

Sorry, total nonsense. You can't back this up, can you? The selling Garrards and Thorens, that is, to buy arms for the Lenco! Most would go the other way round ...

 

[Kim G]

sorry, total nonsense. You can't back this up, can you? The selling garrards and thorens, that is, to buy arms for the lenco! Most would go the other way round ...

wow!

 

[fiddlefye]

No matter which way you look at things it is getting to be a more expensive proposition in all parts. Good drives have been wandering up in price for some time now and good used arms are neither plentiful nor cheap.

Once I do decide what to do for a drive I will still have to hunt down a good arm for the job. At the moment I have an ATP-12T, Sumiko MMT and SME 3009 S2 Improved. All are decent enough arms, but at least one will be needed for a second table and I definitely want two arms on at least one if not both tables. In addition I'm not really convinced that what I have already will be good enough to extract the performance potential of the drive (whatever it turns out to be) once it is ready. Choosing and acquiring one or two really suitable arms will be another journey yet. Suggestions in this area would of course be helpful as well.

Then the is the matter of cart choice. I want to be set up with the facility to run a very good MC cart on one arm and then to be able to switch out carts on another preferably running the gamut from the light-tracking to something for 78s. Who knows, it might end up requiring a third arm to accomplish this well.

As you can see, this is not going to a quick trot to the finish line. Advice given so far has been very helpful. I really would love a few more specific listening impressions and perhaps a few more hints as to the pitfalls as well as the strengths of the various models.

As to folks selling their Thorens and Garrards to finance an arm purchase I have no idea, but given the way arm prices are going these days.....

 

[grottyash]

wow!

Yes, couldn't agree more, who knows where these ideas come from!

 

[Redboy]

grottyash, man, you've gotta give it a rest.

Yes, there are highly modified Lencos out there that sound better than my Garrard 301, which sits in a slate plinth and is equipped with a a Schick tonearm.

Yes, there are individuals (more than one!) out there who have sold their Garrards and Thorens to fund tonearm purchases for their Lencos.

A personal friend of mine has two - that's two - Tri-Planar tonearms on his Lenco project. This guy's got excellent ears and has been working in the high end audio industry for years. He's owned and heard plenty of very high end turntables (yes, including Garrards and Thorens) and he prefers the Lenco.

Another friend has a Graham Phantom on his (highly modified) Lenco. No coincidence.

Both of those turntables sound better than my 301.

A good turntable motor unit is really just a high quality platter, motor and bearing. The tables here are generally excellent but for all practical purposes the Garrards and Thorens have limited potential - you can only modify them so far before you've ruined their value, and because they cost so much now, nobody wants to wreck them. So some of the guys that really want to take their turntable projects up a notch buy a Lenco (which has an excellent motor and platter and a very good bearing) and modify the hell out of it.

 

[fiddlefye]

grottyash, man, you've gotta give it a rest.

Yes, there are highly modified Lencos out there that sound better than my Garrard 301, which sits in a slate plinth and is equipped with a a Schick tonearm.

Yes, there are individuals (more than one!) out there who have sold their Garrards and Thorens to fund tonearm purchases for their Lencos.

A personal friend of mine has two - that's two - Tri-Planar tonearms on his Lenco project. This guy's got excellent ears and has been working in the high end audio industry for years. He's owned and heard plenty of very high end turntables (yes, including Garrards and Thorens) and he prefers the Lenco.

Another friend has a Graham Phantom on his (highly modified) Lenco. No coincidence.

Both of those turntables sound better than my 301.

A good turntable motor unit is really just a high quality platter, motor and bearing. The tables here are generally excellent but for all practical purposes the Garrards and Thorens have limited potential - you can only modify them so far before you've ruined their value, and because they cost so much now, nobody wants to wreck them. So some of the guys that really want to take their turntable projects up a notch buy a Lenco (which has an excellent motor and platter and a very good bearing) and modify the hell out of it.

Very good point it seems to me. Not many people would want to take a 301, 401 or TD124 and do radical surgery to it these days, if they ever did. On top of that it strikes me that none of the above would take as easily to major alteration as a Lenco does.

From my own perspective I'm not sure dragging the n-th degree out is of ultimate importance as the rooms I have to work with will never be incredibly quiet due to environmental noise and given the nature of my record collection hitting that ultimate point isn't going to be necessary. On the other hand making the strengths of an idler design work for me is important and setting up a table that gives maximum flexibility is as well. Getting close would be worthwhile, though. I will be using electronics and speakers that are capable of making rumble and a lack of focus quite apparent and they do throw a very good soundstage.

 

[mfrench]

Say its not true!!

 

[Redboy]

Say its not true!!

Hah!

 

[nailer]

REALLY?

And what comparison can you make with your Garrard 401? Is your 401 better than a modified Lenco? Have you owned a modified Lenco?
The OP wanted opinions on certain tables that he listed that he was considering to " work up as my main table ". He listed the Thorens TD 124, Garrard 301 and 401, and the various Lenco possibilities. Beings that I own two of the tables he listed and he asked for head to head opinions from owners, I gave my opinion. My modified Lenco is better than my stock Thorens TD 124.

Lets hear your personal experience of ownership and opinion of the models he listed.

Yes really. :yes:

Your first post (#75) points to Arthur Salvatore's web site. His opinion on equipment is not the be all end all. You make no mention of your own sonic experience. Your second post (#80) was in response to my post (#77). No comment on sound, just that you listened to your NOS Thorens TD-124 for less than an hour. In this quoted post (#82) all you say is that your modified Lenco is better than your stock TD-124. No comment on how it sounds better/different, which is one of the inputs fiddlefye is seeking.

In my original post (#28) I shared my experience in order to add to the OP's base of knowledge. I'm contemplating a PTP Lenco and if I have one someday and were to compare it to a stock TD-124 (with a stock plinth) I'd be disappointed if the PTP wasn't significantly better. Everything I've read and heard regarding the Thorens, Garrards and Lencos is that a modern well damped plinth with significant mass is a must to get what these tables offer.

 

[bob06]

Everything I've read and heard regarding the Thorens, Garrards and Lencos is that a modern well damped plinth with significant mass is a must to get what these tables offer.[/QUOTE]

Like this. :thmbsp:

 

[beatcomber]

Everything I've read and heard regarding the Thorens, Garrards and Lencos is that a modern well damped plinth with significant mass is a must to get what these tables offer.

Like this. :thmbsp:

Having heard Bob's TD-124 in person, I must agree! :tresbon:

 

[Kim G]

Yes really. :yes:

Your first post (#75) points to Arthur Salvatore's web site. His opinion on equipment is not the be all end all. You make no mention of your own sonic experience. Your second post (#80) was in response to my post (#77). No comment on sound, just that you listened to your NOS Thorens TD-124 for less than an hour. In this quoted post (#82) all you say is that your modified Lenco is better than your stock TD-124. No comment on how it sounds better/different, which is one of the inputs fiddlefye is seeking.

In my original post (#28) I shared my experience in order to add to the OP's base of knowledge. I'm contemplating a PTP Lenco and if I have one someday and were to compare it to a stock TD-124 (with a stock plinth) I'd be disappointed if the PTP wasn't significantly better. Everything I've read and heard regarding the Thorens, Garrards and Lencos is that a modern well damped plinth with significant mass is a must to get what these tables offer.

Good luck on your quest for a PTP Lenco, it is a worthy goal. Then you can compare your 401 and let us know your preference. I have one more Lenco and PTP left in my parts bin and am thinking of going with a soapstone plinth. Might make a soapstone for the Thorens also.

 

[shelby1420]

grottyash, man, you've gotta give it a rest.

Yes, there are highly modified Lencos out there that sound better than my Garrard 301, which sits in a slate plinth and is equipped with a a Schick tonearm.

Yes, there are individuals (more than one!) out there who have sold their Garrards and Thorens to fund tonearm purchases for their Lencos.

A personal friend of mine has two - that's two - Tri-Planar tonearms on his Lenco project. This guy's got excellent ears and has been working in the high end audio industry for years. He's owned and heard plenty of very high end turntables (yes, including Garrards and Thorens) and he prefers the Lenco.

Another friend has a Graham Phantom on his (highly modified) Lenco. No coincidence.

Both of those turntables sound better than my 301.

A good turntable motor unit is really just a high quality platter, motor and bearing. The tables here are generally excellent but for all practical purposes the Garrards and Thorens have limited potential - you can only modify them so far before you've ruined their value, and because they cost so much now, nobody wants to wreck them. So some of the guys that really want to take their turntable projects up a notch buy a Lenco (which has an excellent motor and platter and a very good bearing) and modify the hell out of it.

Interesting observations Nate, I on the other hand had the opposite experience......... I have owned both the Lenco L75/78 and modified the piss out of them, spending insane amounts of money ( with mods mentioned in this thread and others) and after so desperately wanting to love them, ended up selling them.........they just lacked life to me, the music was there, but thats it, just there...... I went another route with the Pro Ject RPM 10 ( mostly because I was sooooo disillusioned with what I heard with the Lencos) until last year I decided to to jump back into the Idler group and bought an oil bearing Garrard 301 and POW, there was the music, alive and dynamic, punchy and solid, almost like it was reaching out and demanding I take notice!!!!! I have a mediocre arm( MIchell Tecnoarm and equally normal Ortofon Black cartridge) and it absolutely stomps either the 75 or 78 with about 5-6 times the money into them then this 301 which is stock................. Now, the Thorens 124 is another I would love to hear someday...........

 

[mfrench]

Good luck on your quest for a PTP Lenco, it is a worthy goal. Then you can compare your 401 and let us know your preference. I have one more Lenco and PTP left in my parts bin and am thinking of going with a soapstone plinth. Might make a soapstone for the Thorens also.

Soapstone is really a nice material.
It also provides me a bit of a segue,….

Did I lessen the value of my Lenco by mod'ing it?

Minus the arm and cart,…
I have $15 in the B51. I spent another $50 for a heavy platter and bearing to convert it to a heavy platter deck. The soapstone rem was $75. A 5mm ruby ball bearing ran me another $5 In total, I have about $145 invested, plus design and build time (DIY).
Should I worry about the value declining?
When will I know when it's come time to sell it?

I feel it's a competitor. Its a back breaker to be sure.

 

[mfrench]

Interesting observations Nate, I on the other hand had the opposite experience......... I have owned both the Lenco L75/78 and modified the piss out of them, spending insane amounts of money ( with mods mentioned in this thread and others) and after so desperately wanting to love them, ended up selling them.........they just lacked life to me, the music was there, but thats it, just there...... I went another route with the Pro Ject RPM 10 ( mostly because I was sooooo disillusioned with what I heard with the Lencos) until last year I decided to to jump back into the Idler group and bought an oil bearing Garrard 301 and POW, there was the music, alive and dynamic, punchy and solid, almost like it was reaching out and demanding I take notice!!!!! I have a mediocre arm( MIchell Tecnoarm and equally normal Ortofon Black cartridge) and it absolutely stomps either the 75 or 78 with about 5-6 times the money into them then this 301 which is stock................. Now, the Thorens 124 is another I would love to hear someday...........

Sounds more like an arm/cart issue than the deck.

 

[Mister Pig]

Amazing, a couple of you in this thread can sure act like a couple of dick heads.

Lenco, Garrard, Thorens, or what other idler. Any one of these tables can be the cats meow for the right person. Everyone has different styles of presentation they are looking for, level of refurbishment or DIY energy they are willing to commit, and funds to start the project...or invest in the whole thing.

You guys outght to act your age and grow up a bit.

Regards
Mister Pig