Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

E145-8 / 4627 continued

JBL ran the E145 wide open. While I've been enjoying the sound for the past week, I decided to add the stock EWLPXO. Listening impressions to follow. The inductor is screwed to the brace, the cap affixed by blu-tak until I find my 2x sided tape.

Oh - and the nameplate fell off of the 145, so I'm re-gluing it.

Some measuring and fixed LPAD

I rebuilt my crossovers and went to fixed attenuation this weekend. Also had a friend stop by with a 2496 and measuring mic.

I like the fixed lpad better than having the adjustable, as strange as that may sound.

I used 50 ohms across R1 and 12.5 for R2 and the .22 for the bypass cap.

Attached are the results, first pic is standard phase and second is reversed at the compression driver - both left speaker, last pic is right speaker phase reversed. The differences may be the room, I have a lot to learn!

donprice said:

Just to add a little more...the first place to start might be to ask "how big a box" since that directly influences how any woofer performs. The big old woofers in big old boxes can work very nicely and be quite inexpensive (particularly if you already have them). There is no substitute for cubic feet. A second question, as Zilch alluded to, is to ask "what are you using them for"? Critical listening, home theater, or garage band blasters? Of course you might want to ask # 2 first, then # 1...

Once you have the application and the box size (roughly) selected then you can go woofer hunting. A cheap woofer in the right box is probably going to outperform an expensive one in the wrong box.

Go to Parts Express and check out the Eminence 12" woofers. Most of them include "project suggestions" that includes box sizes and modeled response curves that really helps illustrate how the same woofer in different boxes behaves. Or you can play with box modeling software...

Unfortunately this only leads more questions...

Click to expand...

I'll be using them for critical listening in a music room.

I can build the box per specs but I do not have the speaker building experience to know the dimensions. Thoughts??

I checked out the Eminence 12" woofers. Do you have any model numbers that you recommend?

Thanks again! This is SUPER helpful. I know several others that are following this thread that are in the same boat as I. Thanks for the comments. Any info is helpful for those of us with less experience.

Bauhausler said:

If you look through the Official Ewavers list (now over 70) on the first page you'll see that several people have had success with the Classic Series Dayton woofers from Parts Express. That's a low-cost option.
Other than that it's pretty much up to you to decide on the following parameters:
How much you want to spend.
What size cabinet.
How low you want the bass to go.
and then search PE, Madisound, etc. for candidates that will play cleanly up to the 1600 hz crossover region.

Click to expand...

Does anyone have any model numbers they want to add here for the above mentioned Dayton, PE, and Madisound candidates that satisfy the 1600hz requirement??

Thanks in advance.

Dayton Classics:

8" = DC200-8

10" = DC250-8

12" = DC300-8

1scienceguy said:

I'll be using them for critical listening in a music room.

I checked out the Eminence 12" woofers. Do you have any model numbers that you recommend?

Click to expand...

The Eminence drivers are probably not the best choice for critical listening unless you are running them with a subwoofer (more likely in pro audio or home theater use). The higher efficiency (usually >96 db @ 1 W @ 1 m) comes at a price - usually relative lack of low bass response when configured in box that provides a pretty flat response. For example, the 10" DeltaLite-II 2510 (PE # 290-591 $110) looks pretty flat 80-2000 Hz. Might be great with a subwoofer, no doubt a disappointment without one. Of course, a curve really can't tell you what you think it sounds like.

I built mine with used JBL 2204 drivers and that is all I have heard with the eWaves. Sorry I can't give you a more direct answer.

For $37 I would give the Dayton DC-300-8 a try. The worst that can happen is that you pull them out and try something more expensive.

Bauhausler said:

Here's how the article happened. Back when WiredBecker's video on Econowaves appeared in Wired I emailed links to it to several bloggers that I intermittently correspond with. One was Mr. Jalopy, who runs the great blog Hooptyrides. Mr Jalopy also partners with Mark Frauenfelder in the awesome blog Dinosaurs and Robots
Among other things, Mark is co-founder of uber blog bOING bOING and the managing Editor of Make Magazine.
Mark asked me to write up my Utility Large Advent build as an article for the magazine. I agreed but decided to do an all new build with Original Large Advents, better parts and step by step pictures.
I completed the project and article in a couple of weeks, documenting some of the work in this thread. It was submitted in early July.
Jackgiff and Zilch knew this was going on and provided guidance and advice. We've been waiting to spill the beans to the Ewave readership because we knew everyone would be really pleased by the exposure.

Click to expand...

COOL!

At one point it seemed like Wired was going to kill my story (not enough room in the mag, too complex to explain in a such a small space, etc) and so I had planned on pitching an expanded version to Make as well as attending the Maker Faire and doing live Econowave builds onsite. Everything worked out though and I'm glad you were able to get these amazing speakers out to a larger dedicated builder audience.

Wanna mod speakers at the Maker Faire next year? I'm wicked good with a Sawzall.

wushuliu said:

Hi everyone. I'm new to this thread and will try to get through as much of it as I can, but I have one question. So far the builds I've been seeing involve older/ used woofers. I have not come across any references to new woofers. What new woofers do people recommend?

Click to expand...

More questions - whats your budget? Sub or no sub? Preference for sealed or ported? How loud, how low do you want to go? How much power do you have? Do you want to stick with a 12" (for an optimal directivity watch with the waveguide), or are you OK with a 10"?

I wanted to try for a high-efficiency system without spending too much. I went with a moderately priced pro audio woofer, the P. Audio E12-200S. It's 95+ dB/W efficient, easily goes above 1600, and goes down flat to 40 before rolling off in a large ported box (actually mass-loaded t-line, but the idea is similar). P. Audio has several other woofers that would offer different tradeoffs. For example the WN-12S looks like it would be a bit smoother in the mids, but won't go as deep as the E12 and costs a bit more.

If you want to go American made, the Eminence Delta 12LFA might work. It's made to go deeper than most of Emmi's other 12 inchers. The specs are actually not far off of the P. Audio woofer I used.

For increasing amounts of money, Beyma (e.g. 10BR60 - moderate efficiency but uses a smaller box than what I built), Faital Pro (e.g. 12PR300 - claimed 99dB/W, but would need a sub) and B&C ($$) all make some promising drivers, none of which I've heard. For real money, it might be hard to beat one of the AE TD series woofers - the TD12S looks like a great driver. At over $250 each, it had better be!

If you don't need high efficiency and can spend a few bucks for quality, the Seas Prestige A26RE4 is a wonderful woofer. I heard a pair at the NorCal DIY meet last week (with a Scanspeak dome tweeter IIRC), and they sounded great - with no crossover on the woofer! They roll off smoothly all on their own. Best suited to a lowish Q sealed box - the PE trapezoid box is just the right size. The builder of the pair I heard said they needed just the right amount of stuffing to sound just right, but the results were worth the playing around. Won't play as loud as a pro woofer and will need more than a couple of watts, but in a moderate sized room with a little room gain they'd go plenty deep for music (use a sub for movies, though).

Then there's the whole world of 'standard' home audio drivers from Peerless, Morel, Usher, etc. The forums at Madisound or PE might be good sources of info on those, I'd have no clue!

Bill

The waveguide bug is biting. I've been searching for answers I can not find, but most of the time you need to know what you don't know to ask the right questions. I fall inot the category of not knowing what I don't know.

I want to try to build an econo waveguide out of a pair of Boston A100 cabinets. The Boston woofers are 8 ohm and the A100 uses a 1600 Hz crossover. Can I use the standard bill of materials for 8 ohm speakers to build the waveguide crossovers, or do I need to recalculate the values to fine tune the low pass filter?

Thanks,
Bugs

badmusician said:

More questions - whats your budget? Sub or no sub? Preference for sealed or ported? How loud, how low do you want to go? How much power do you have? Do you want to stick with a 12" (for an optimal directivity watch with the waveguide), or are you OK with a 10"?

I wanted to try for a high-efficiency system without spending too much. I went with a moderately priced pro audio woofer, the P. Audio E12-200S. It's 95+ dB/W efficient, easily goes above 1600, and goes down flat to 40 before rolling off in a large ported box (actually mass-loaded t-line, but the idea is similar). P. Audio has several other woofers that would offer different tradeoffs. For example the WN-12S looks like it would be a bit smoother in the mids, but won't go as deep as the E12 and costs a bit more.

If you want to go American made, the Eminence Delta 12LFA might work. It's made to go deeper than most of Emmi's other 12 inchers. The specs are actually not far off of the P. Audio woofer I used.

For increasing amounts of money, Beyma (e.g. 10BR60 - moderate efficiency but uses a smaller box than what I built), Faital Pro (e.g. 12PR300 - claimed 99dB/W, but would need a sub) and B&C ($$) all make some promising drivers, none of which I've heard. For real money, it might be hard to beat one of the AE TD series woofers - the TD12S looks like a great driver. At over $250 each, it had better be!

If you don't need high efficiency and can spend a few bucks for quality, the Seas Prestige A26RE4 is a wonderful woofer. I heard a pair at the NorCal DIY meet last week (with a Scanspeak dome tweeter IIRC), and they sounded great - with no crossover on the woofer! They roll off smoothly all on their own. Best suited to a lowish Q sealed box - the PE trapezoid box is just the right size. The builder of the pair I heard said they needed just the right amount of stuffing to sound just right, but the results were worth the playing around. Won't play as loud as a pro woofer and will need more than a couple of watts, but in a moderate sized room with a little room gain they'd go plenty deep for music (use a sub for movies, though).

Then there's the whole world of 'standard' home audio drivers from Peerless, Morel, Usher, etc. The forums at Madisound or PE might be good sources of info on those, I'd have no clue!

Bill

Click to expand...

Thanks BM, that helps. I've built several conventional 2-ways from designs at PE, but this is a new area for me. I'm looking for a set-up that will play low (I have no sub) for 70% critical listening and 30% HT use. I'm in an apartment so I won't be listening at more than moderate levels. I'm flexible on efficiency. As for size, I don't think I'll want larger than a 10"... The Seas looks great, no need to worry about any break up issues it seems.

bugs762 said:

I want to try to build an econo waveguide out of a pair of Boston A100 cabinets. The Boston woofers are 8 ohm and the A100 uses a 1600 Hz crossover. Can I use the standard bill of materials for 8 ohm speakers to build the waveguide crossovers, or do I need to recalculate the values to fine tune the low pass filter?

Click to expand...

I just looked a pair of A100s to verify, and it doesn't appear there are any issues; they appear to be excellent candidates. Start with the standard eWave crossover.

Mine have no woofers, so I'll likely put the SEAS Bill just mentioned in them....

Zilch said:

I just looked a pair of A100s to verify, and it doesn't appear there are any issues; they appear to be excellent candidates. Start with the standard eWave crossover.

Mine have no woofers, so I'll likely put the SEAS Bill just mentioned in them....

Click to expand...

Thanks Zilch.

The Value Leader:

Another eWave listening comparison:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262345

Zilch said:

Another eWave listening comparison:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262345

Click to expand...

Cool comparo!

wiredbecker said:

COOL!

At one point it seemed like Wired was going to kill my story (not enough room in the mag, too complex to explain in a such a small space, etc) and so I had planned on pitching an expanded version to Make as well as attending the Maker Faire and doing live Econowave builds onsite. Everything worked out though and I'm glad you were able to get these amazing speakers out to a larger dedicated builder audience.

Wanna mod speakers at the Maker Faire next year? I'm wicked good with a Sawzall.

Click to expand...

Go to California and hang out for a weekend with tens of thousands of builders, hackers, modders, warranty-voiders and mad scientists? Boy, do I ever! Might be worth also teaching the useful skill of woofer refoaming while we're at it. I raised the issue with my wife and she's still speaking to me so it's in the maybe column.
We'll talk...

decisions, decisions ...

Hi again folks,

I posted some questions here recently about giving a set of Marantz 4mkII a new lease on life by Econo-Waving them. I had settled on the woofers I would get (the Daytons), and was all set to go when I decided to take stock of my other thrift store and craigs list finds. Hence my quandary ...

I was wondering if you kind folks would lend an ear and help me decide what would be some good choices for me with the speakers I have. Basically, I'm trying to decide what would be the best use for each of these pairs of speakers and whether some or better suited to EconoWaving than others. One of these sets of speakers, probably the Marantz, will be a set of speakers to go with a first system I'm putting together for my 9-year old son.

Here's the list of players:

1) set of Marantz 4mkII -- with one woofer needing refoaming, the other woofer is fine, but it doesn't match and has one of those 'wizzers'. If I understand the crossover correctly, the low-frequency driver really plays full range and the tweeter does work as a high frequency driver. Cabinets are so-so. I was thinking these could be Econo-Waved with no complications.

2) set of Realistic Optimus 5bs (see page 40) -- I was told these are based on the design of the KLH-5 (thanks Wolverine!).

These have very nice cabinets (25x14x11.5) with a 12'' woofer, and two midrange speakers as well as a tweeter. The midranges and tweeters are the same speakers, but there is a crossover that sends the high-frequency sound to the tweeter. There are also two tone controls on the back for treble and midrange response.

These speakers sound good, but are lacking in the high end. I'm supposing that could be due to the caps needing replacing. Perhaps a simple recap and deoxit on the driver controls would help these out in the high end response. Of course, I could also replace the tweeter with a dedicated tweeter, but I wonder if that also means I'd have to reconfigure the crossover.

3- Last, I just acquired a pair of Pioneer CS-77 with cabinets in wonderful shape. These are bass reflex speakers with a 5" midrange and a horn tweeter; here's an AK thread with pics of the outside and inside. I like the sound of these, the bass is formidable, without being over-emphasized. However, I wonder if the fact that it's ported (bass reflex) makes it unsuitable or difficult for a novice speaker builder. I tried playing with the software to accommodate the fact that it has a rectangular port, but couldn't come up with anything that seemed workable.

One option I have been considering with these is to recap them, see how they sound, and go from there. I figure this is not too expensive an experiment ... Oh, btw, how does one DeOxit the control on these? It seems, as far as I can see, a sealed control.

So, what would you folks suggest as a good plan for each of these speakers? My funds are not unlimited, but I do have some woodworking tools, a soldering iron, and am an apt pupil. I am, however, a total novice at speaker building, so one consideration may be that I 'learn' on a lesser pair of speakers so I don't ruin something more valuable. Given that, I thought I'd try this route with the Marantz speakers.

a- buy the woofers
b- buy the components for the EconoWave crossover
c- install the new woofers alone, just as an experiment to see how they sound
d- install the EconoWave crossover -- again, as an experiment as the current, stock crossover is really just a high-pass filter and the 'woofer' plays full range
e- then do it up as an EconoWave proper -- the waveguide, high frequency driver, and the works.

Do any of you see anything wrong with going about my learning / experimentation this way?

I am open to any and all suggestions folks! I am a true DIYer at heart, so I'm excited by the fun I'll have learning this stuff, as well as the satisfaction of doing it myself.

I thank you all in advance for your time, and kindness in sharing your knowledge!

So I have been donated a pair of Marantz 77's for the project. I'll be refinishing the cabinets and sealing up the mid and tweeter. The question is what to do with the 3 eq knobs on the front. Should I incorporate them into the design or remove them all together??

Thanks in advance.

1scienceguy said:

So I have been donated a pair of Marantz 77's for the project. I'll be refinishing the cabinets and sealing up the mid and tweeter. The question is what to do with the 3 eq knobs on the front. Should I incorporate them into the design or remove them all together??

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

I had HD-77s back in the '70s. Are you going to use the port or run them sealed?

I don't recall the position of the level controls but the waveguide might need that real estate. If not you can fabricate a new panel and put the Lpad for the treble there.
I still have a set of HD-77 drivers here from a pair of cabs I gave Kegger. The woofers look pretty beefy.

reneborg said:

Do any of you see anything wrong with going about my learning / experimentation this way?

I am open to any and all suggestions folks! I am a true DIYer at heart, so I'm excited by the fun I'll have learning this stuff, as well as the satisfaction of doing it myself.

Click to expand...

Build the eWave with the standard crossover and try it with different speakers as low frequency "modules" to hear how they will sound in combination. You don't have to modify anything to do this, just bring out connections for the woofers after disconnecting them from the stock crossovers in each.

I'd just go with that rectangular port for starters, on the assumption that the designers knew what they were doing. Measure it up, and the box modeling programs will tell you the present tuning; they most all have rectangular port options.... :yes:

HPM-100 ewave & Advent NLA ewave

Ok,

I've committed to actually posting some of my projects....

I've "produced" two e-waves using Selenium 220ti drivers.

My favorite is an Advent NLA ewave that I absolutely love done by Wayne. So far, my only hands-on with these speakers is swapping the woofers and applying mortite to the new woofer frames. I'll eventually tune the fiberglass. I also did Watco Danish Oil and Howard's Feed-n-Wax to improve the looks... this ewave is discussed here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262345

One thing I'll note is that the foam used on the previous re-foamed advent woofers was definitely different than the foam on the replacements. The latter are more pliable and thinner. I think there is credence to the discussions on the importance of this foam discussed in this thread. I plan on sending out the originals to Audio Atlanta to get worked on and then I'll swap and compare again (albeit only by listening as I have no measurement equipment).

The other ewave was an earlier one using the HPM-100 woofer (Wayne re-did a pair of HPM-100s for me with new wire, no rez, new x-overs, etc. that I'll post elsewhere) and I liked the woofer.

I decided to have new cabinets built by a speaker-building friend. He felt that using an Eminence horn would get the acoustic centers closer and I decided to go for it. However, I ultimately decided that I didn't like the sound of the horn and pulled them out and put in JBL waveguides (I also realized the Zilch x-over deals with the centers not being exact). This required a bit of chiseling on my part (I haven't been able to tell my friend about this "mod" yet ) and I have yet to exactly work out how I will do screws/t-nuts, etc. The destruction isn't that big a deal as I plan to paint the speakers in a vintage automobile paint color at a body shop (I've had good success with this on other projects). So, I'll just patch the areas that need it prior to the paint...may even paint the JBL horn (not sure if that’s a good idea or not).

However, I have a bit of work yet to do before I call these truly finished. They were a great intro into ewaves and encouraged me sufficiently to ask Wayne to mod my Advent NLAs. They sound great with tons of low-end (too much for my listening room actually) but I think the x-over still needs work (the Advents are just so much better integrated). I want to try the x-over design by Kegger. We used the basic design from Zilch/Jack-- the only addition was a film/foil bypass cap on the tweeter's capacitor and non-inductive resistors.

The cabinets are made out of no void 3/4" Baltic Birch and the fronts are made from a 1.5" solid core door with Luan surface. They measure 33" tall, 18" wide, 15" deep...just under 4ft3 with the drivers loaded. There are two primary shelf braces—one between the High Frequency Driver and the woofer and one just below the woofer. Block braces below that to stiffen the side and rear panels. The interior was coated with glue/sand mixtures as was the horn itself. They have a 1/2" radius on all exterior corners sanded. The venting is tuned to 29Hz. The ports are on the back and are a little less than 11.5 inches long. The L-Pad is on the back too.

The speakers are extremely heavy-I plan to put them on castors that complement the paint color.

So, here they are (I guess I can only post 6 pics at a time when replying?). I'll post an update once I tweak the x-over and I'll also replace the crummy pic of the waveguide that I took from my cellphone.

For now though I'm enjoying my advent ewaves....