Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[Zilch]

That's beautiful work as always, Jack!

I'm listening to both BMS and Selenium here concurrently as well, and if I were to characterize the difference, the titaniums are "crisper" sounding than the Mylars.

Skywave in NYC is doing both also, and he'll likely have a listening evaluation for us soon.

As you say, Selenium Ti is EconoWave, and I'm having no hesitation recommending the combination.... :thmbsp:

*****

I'll do a post over in AK Pony Express regarding getting the Baronets to Berkeley. :yes:

 

[m4rz]

Yes! And I will be purchasing those shortly. Thanks for the great post. It was very helpful, and also allows me a chance to hear horns with my combination without over investing. Horns are on now on order.

 

[Bauhausler]

Hey, I'm looking at cabinets to mate a pair of EconoWaves with Altec 406-8Z woofers. I can't find specs that will tell me what cabinet depth is required to accommodate the horn with the Selenium driver. Can someone give me an estimate?
Thanks

 

[Zilch]

Hey, I'm looking at cabinets to mate a pair of EconoWaves with Altec 406-8Z woofers. I can't find specs that will tell me what cabinet depth is required to accommodate the horn with the Selenium driver. Can someone give me an estimate?
Thanks

Stanley tape says 6.25" from front of baffle, 6.375+" if you're going to recess the horn flange flush....

 

[Bauhausler]

Stanley tape says 6.25" from front of baffle, 6.375" if you're going to recess the horn flange flush....

Thanks. I assume that includes the driver. That's shallower than I thought. I have a nice pair of driverless EPI 200B cabs that are well built and look great. They measure 2 cu ft, which is right for the 406 woofer. I'm looking for ways to adapt the front panel to the 406 and the Econowave.
The 200B cabs have 12" PRs in them. My Boleros use the 406 with a PR. I'd be more likely to blank off the PR hole. It would be nice if it provided the right loading to extend the 406 bottom end but that accidental compatibility would be too much to hope for.

Sigh. More projects....

 

[Zilch]

I assume that includes the driver.

Yup.

 

[Russellc]

My JBL 4647 econowaveguide

Here's the econowaveguide Im going to build from JBL 4647, el-cheapo wave guide, and JBL 2425H, Im ordering crossover parts and will throw in the selenium drivers.

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

4647 (4507) is my favorite big JBL reflex box. It' "tuneable" by plugging one or more ports to lower the frequency from the stock 40 Hz for different drivers.

It'll be interesting to hear if the Selenium EconoWaves can keep with those big 15" JBL 2225H woofers.

[I'm bettin' they can.... :yes: ]

 

[needforspeed]

First let me say, A great thread for a novice to understand horns, And there concept. After visiting Zilch, And hearing both of his versions, This 2 way system is astonishing, And thats an understatement. Version 1, Was some KLH cabs with the BMS driver, And a modern day JBL 10" woofer. After some years listening to soft dome tweeters, Those loudspeakers blew me away. I mean, You walk into his shop, Wires are everywhere, Stuff upside down, And you sit between these 2 speakers, And it's shocking. We like the disc Fleetwood Mac "Rumors" as the test disc, A mid 80's copy, Not remastered, And it's friggin fantastic! So today I stop in, And theres version #2, Some fairly small little boxes on legs, With L100 woofers, And the before mentioned Selenium drivers, And JBL horns. Not to take anything away from version #1, But I liked this system better, Mainly due to I like Rock music, And these had a bit more "Sparkle". Bass was also slightly better, With more snap to my ears. Imaging with both were unreal, With version 2 sounding somewhat "Fuller", Both are mind blowing. In the next few months I will be going to this system, I have a pair of HPM 100 12" drivers, That should match up well(Hopefully). You guys designed a very cost effective speaker, That can compete with anything out there, From a 2 way system, Amazing.:yes:

 

[Russellc]

4647 (4507) is my favorite big JBL reflex box. It' "tuneable" by plugging one or more ports to lower the frequency from the stock 40 Hz for different drivers.

It'll be interesting to hear if the Selenium EconoWaves can keep with those big 15" JBL 2225H woofers.

[I'm bettin' they can.... :yes: ]

Well I thought getting the Seleniums would be a good idea as the crossovers compensation was designed with it in mind. How far off do you think it would be with JBL 2425H?

As to the plug combinations and different tunings, that is great. I have another pair of 2225H that I will recone to 2235H and then this tuning aspect will pay off I'm sure.:thmbsp:

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

Well I thought getting the Seleniums would be a good idea as the crossovers compensation was designed with it in mind. How far off do you think it would be with JBL 2425H?

I'd have to measure, and I'll put it on the list to try, but in the spirit of this thread, I encourage you to get the Seleniums so you can do the listening comparison as well.

[They're cheap.... ]

You guys designed a very cost effective speaker, That can compete with anything out there, From a 2 way system, Amazing.:yes:

Thanks, NFS, I kinda thought you might like the sound of them. We'll see how HPM-100 woofs play in comparison soon, apparently.... :thmbsp:

 

[needforspeed]

I'd have to measure, and I'll put it on the list to try, but in the spirit of this thread, I encourage you to get the Seleniums so you can do the listening comparison as well.

[They're cheap.... ]

Thanks, NFS, I kinda thought you might like the sound of them. We'll see how HPM-100 woofs play in comparison soon, apparently.... :thmbsp:

Definitely, After clearing up a few issues, I will give this a go.:yes:

 

[Russellc]

I'd have to measure, and I'll put it on the list to try, but in the spirit of this thread, I encourage you to get the Seleniums so you can do the listening comparison as well.

[They're cheap.... ]

Thanks, NFS, I kinda thought you might like the sound of them. We'll see how HPM-100 woofs play in comparison soon, apparently.... :thmbsp:

Oh I'm ordering them alright, just plain affordable those are! Let me know when and if you play with 2425H in there!

Russellc

 

[skywave-rider]

Just letting u guys know I've almost got everything together. Pretty sure I will go with the PT Waveguides we've been using and place them on top. I was considering the 9x9 PT, which is more money but fits in the cabinet. The biggest obstacle to trying that is woodwork.
Mine will have to be total hermit crab boxes.

 

[Russellc]

4647 (4507) is my favorite big JBL reflex box. It' "tuneable" by plugging one or more ports to lower the frequency from the stock 40 Hz for different drivers.

It'll be interesting to hear if the Selenium EconoWaves can keep with those big 15" JBL 2225H woofers.

[I'm bettin' they can.... :yes: ]

I ordered my crossover parts yesterday and had them add the selenium drivers as well. Supposed to be here friday! I did notice that the 210 model was on sale for ridiculous cheap if any one wants to economize the econowave further...

Russellc

 

[Russellc]

Definitely, After clearing up a few issues, I will give this a go.:yes:

Nice! glad someone else is going to give this deal a whirl. I cant believe more people arent trying this. Zilch has stuffed a wave guide in about every conceiveable speaker out there. For anyone with box building skills or a sufficiently large box laying around this is a no brainer. I mean really, well under 200.00 for BOTH horns and drivers as well as crossovers for both speakers? (maybe under 150 with lesser x-over parts and the 210?

OK, maybe there needs to be a thread about the "econo bass box." How cheap can this be done? As already stated, I am using the 4647 box Zilch tipped me off to, (and it could be done cheaper than this choice) cost? 300.00, plus 2 wave guides, two selenium drivers, and parts for two crossovers? 168.00 in my case for a total of 468.00! It cost me 1600.00 to cherry pick my A7 parts, and I really believe these are going to kick the A7s to the curb! Zilch maintains I wont need the A7s anymore when these are done, and while I will just use them in another room, I cant wait to hear the results!
Having heard them on top of the A7s was an eye opener, and combined with 4647 bass, this should be a killer combo!

Plus, by slapping in an extra pair of 2225H I have on hand reconed to 2235H, I can build the 4430 crossover and use the JBL 2425H I tried on the wave guide, and attach them to a pair of 2344a I aquired from Oldblind jim, block off a port or two and can compare econowave guide to 4430! That should be interesting as well as fun!

Russellc

 

[Greyhawk17]

yes indeed........

Howdy,
Followed this build with great interest, have got a pair of Sansui SP-
2500's boxes, and a pair of Klipsch K-22E's 12", with the wavegides,
and the D220Ti's, sounds like a potential Heresy 'killer', Only the xover
worries me, but learning is good.....Getting ready to order parts, am
looking forward to jumping in with both feet.....Hopefully we will all
share updates on the projects....Thanks to Zilch/Jack for all the work,
experimenting, Great stuff!.....Cheers, T:thmbsp:

 

[Russellc]

The seleniums and crossovers I ordered should be here today. If so, I will have mine up and running this weekend. Glad to see we have another convert! Yes, these should be Heresy killers to say the least. Likely they are Cornwall killers as well! Zilch has assured me they will kick A7 rear end as well! Keep all posted as you go, maybe the econowave guide is picking up momentum.

I may order the Eminence 2002 that the PI people are using, and build their version of the crossover as well. I all ready have the horn they use in the PI 4 professional, (H290 if I remember right) which seems fairly comparable to the econowave project. Wayne's stuff is well thought out and designed, dont get me wrong and as inexpensive as the 2002 is, the econo wave guide is cheaper, and I have a sneeking suspicion may perform better to boot!

Anyone here in a position to compare 4 PI apples to econowave oranges?

Russellc

 

[Zilch]

Anyone here in a position to compare 4 PI apples to econowave oranges?

It's apparent in the curves that EconoWave has more VHF extension.

Jack tried a Selenium horn in an earlier post here and found it rolled off the highs, as well.

Some combos just work, and EconoWave is one of them.

Put on Patricia Barber's Café Blue, and you'll know instantly.... :yes:

 

[jackgiff]

I may order the Eminence 2002 that the PI people are using, and build their version of the crossover as well. I all ready have the horn they use in the PI 4 professional, (H290 if I remember right) which seems fairly comparable to the econowave project. Wayne's stuff is well thought out and designed, dont get me wrong and as inexpensive as the 2002 is, the econo wave guide is cheaper, and I have a sneeking suspicion may perform better to boot!


Russellc

I tried the Eminence PSD:2002 on one of Eminence's horns in a pair of Altec Madera's once. Planned to use them as rear speakers in a home theater system. The total effect was great, but it was still missing the high end. Eminence rates the PSD:2002 to 20 KHz, but in looking at the factory spec's, response starts dropping about 14 KHz, and is down 25 Db at 20 KHz. I don't see how they can justify rating the device to 20 KHz.

If you do try the Eminence, you will need a super tweeter to get the top end. I feel sure that the EconoWave will easily best the Eminence combo, even with a super tweeter. And considering price, absolutely no contest.

While testing the EconoWave, I had them in the library and compared them to my DIY 4430's. These consist of JBL L200 cabinets, 2235 woofers, and 2431 HF drivers on the more expensive Waveguide. When they were finished I couldn't believe any speaker could best them. And the EconoWave didn't beat them, but it was close, very close. And positioning the speakers in the room may have made up for any inadequacies, but I didn't get to that point. I was ecstatic that the EconoWave performed so well.

Please keep us informed as you build your EconoWaves, and be sure to include some pictures. We all love pictures.